Yugoslavia

[Raellus]

Yugoslavia is one of the most enigmatic locations in T2k (v.1). There are US and Soviet forces there (three divisions a piece, and an Air Assault Brigade for the latter) but it's never made clear in either the v.1 history or the US and Soviet Vehicle Guides why they were sent there.

Yugoslavia started WWIII unified. It declared for NATO after the Soviet invasion of Romania in late December, 1996. It sent mechanized forces to help its neighbor. In August of 1997, Yugoslavia invaded northeastern Italy but the attacking forces were hurled back by the Italians. The Greeks and Albanians invaded Romania in mid-September (the Greeks ultimately annexing Macedonia, creating a rift with Albania).The country was partitioned by the Italians in early 1998. Internecine warfare broke out shortly thereafter (that's a Balkans conflict we can all remember from RL).

It's a mess. So why did the US send forces there (two light infantry divisions in the autumn of 1998, and an infantry division in late '99) Strategically, what was the point The Soviets sent forces to Yugoslavia from Romania after its collapse in September 1997. Again, what was the point Yugoslavia, by that point, was no longer a threat to the WTO.

According to the US Vehicle Guide, the American divisions sent to Yugoslavia end up fighting Croatian and Albanian nationalists instead of the Soviets, Italians, or Greeks. The Soviet Vehicle guide only mentions the Red Army divisions in Yugoslavia fighting partisans. In either case, what's the point

It seems like a sideshow. I can't understand why, in terms of strategy, either the US or Soviet Union sent forces there (especially the latter, given that its new Warsaw Pact allies, the Italians and Greeks had already defeated the Yugoslavs and ignited internecine warfare. For the US, maybe the Ploesti oil fields in neighboring Romania were the objective But how are three infantry divisions (two of them light) going to fight their way there and arrive in any shape to eject Soviet Danube Front (consisting of two Armies and an AAB) That's not going to happen. The v1.0 history suggests that the US 42nd ID was sent to Yugoslavia in late 1999 as a statement of sorts. If so, CivGov's competence in matters of military strategy and geopolitics should be strenuously questioned.

Did the writers have bigger plans for Yugoslavia but not get the chance to follow through on them Is the question of why the US and/or CCCP send forces to Yugoslavia addressed in an adventure module or Challenge article Have any of you run or played a Yugoslavian campaign

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Challenge magazine 47 had an article titled Our Friend Albania that touches on the border region with Yugoslavia (Kosovo).
I had a quick look through my copies of Challenge and aside from that one article I don't think there was anything dealing with Yugoslavia.

[Olefin]

Especially considering that the forces were sent AFTER the Mexicans had invaded the US. So those three divisions would have been much better employed against the Soviet and Mexican forces that were on AMERICAN soil - i.e. why the hell were they sent to Yugoslavia

Those three divisions sent to Texas would probably have retaken most of the state - or sent to CA they would have been enough to at the least send the Mexicans running back to San Diego

Plus NYC is in absolute chaos and you send the 42nd and its tanks to Yugoslavia and leave NYC in the hands of a light infantry division that has no heavy armor

FYI the write up for the 42nd has a massive typo in it - it says it was dispatched to Europe in Autumn 1999 - then says it fought the Croatians on 10/7/98.

[Southernap]

See page 26 and 27 of the V1.0 book. It lays out the actions of the CENTAG that would had US forces land in Jugoslavia/Yugoslavia. NATO was driving into southern Germany to seize the industrial region that borders along the Czech border region. While the Romanians and Jugoslaivians army was driving north to try and assist and break any lines of communication between the PACT and the Italian/Greek army that had occupied Jugoslavia. The offensive was wasted by the end of the year. It says that the Jugoslavian drive was held up at Lake Balaton, which is located in Hungary. So assume that the Jugoslavians, Romanians, and US forces were driving north up to Hungary and meet up with the German IV and V corps which were in Southern Germany (see the W. German OOB in NATO vehicle guide) that were driving south to meet up.

So more than likely those units from the US were sent to try and help bolster the Jugoslavian push against Italians and make the meet up with the CENTAG and capture those industrial zones not damaged in 1997 of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and Czech region. The move was probably made before the actions of Mexico and the Soviet forces in Mexico invaded the southern states. At which probably when the ships were at sea that the Mexicans came across and well past the point of radio communication to come back.

Even money guessing the total collapse of all command and control as well as the governmental split in 1997-98, that the JCS only knew what the DIA could tell them from what limited human intelligence could gather and report back via long communications (there manual makes references that even radios are heavily damaged due to EMP effects and and limited to LOS [both due to radiation in the air and real world applications] so you have to daisy-chain radio data back to someplace and hope the message stays together correctly). In my mind then it makes it reasonable that forces were already in transit to their ports of embarking or were embarking when the Mexican's cross the Rio Grande, again if not already at sea. So trying to turn them around to respond to the newest threat wasn't considered until those ships were past a point of no return compared to the fuel already expended.

Plus NYC is in absolute chaos and you send the 42nd and its tanks to Yugoslavia and leave NYC in the hands of a light infantry division that has no heavy armor

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Similar, examining the Allied Forces experience going through the German forces in Europe and the German forces experiences in Russia showed that armor even then would be dangerous. Which lead to the Soviets to develop the assault guns with a 122m to 152mm gun installed and the Germans to do things like the Strumpanzer and Strumtiger. While the Allied forces never developed specific urban assault vehicles.

[Raellus]

Fahgettaboudit!

See page 26 and 27 of the V1.0 book. It lays out the actions of the CENTAG that would had US forces land in Jugoslavia/Yugoslavia. NATO was driving into southern Germany to seize the industrial region that borders along the Czech border region. While the Romanians and Jugoslaivians army was driving north to try and assist and break any lines of communication between the PACT and the Italian/Greek army that had occupied Jugoslavia. The offensive was wasted by the end of the year. It says that the Jugoslavian drive was held up at Lake Balaton, which is located in Hungary. So assume that the Jugoslavians, Romanians, and US forces were driving north up to Hungary and meet up with the German IV and V corps which were in Southern Germany (see the W. German OOB in NATO vehicle guide) that were driving south to meet up.

So more than likely those units from the US were sent to try and help bolster the Jugoslavian push against Italians and make the meet up with the CENTAG and capture those industrial zones not damaged in 1997 of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and Czech region. The move was probably made before the actions of Mexico and the Soviet forces in Mexico invaded the southern states. At which probably when the ships were at sea that the Mexicans came across and well past the point of radio communication to come back.

Even money guessing the total collapse of all command and control as well as the governmental split in 1997-98, that the JCS only knew what the DIA could tell them from what limited human intelligence could gather and report back via long communications (there manual makes references that even radios are heavily damaged due to EMP effects and and limited to LOS [both due to radiation in the air and real world applications] so you have to daisy-chain radio data back to someplace and hope the message stays together correctly). In my mind then it makes it reasonable that forces were already in transit to their ports of embarking or were embarking when the Mexican's cross the Rio Grande, again if not already at sea. So trying to turn them around to respond to the newest threat wasn't considered until those ships were past a point of no return compared to the fuel already expended.

Thanks. You're right, the timing of the two US light divisions' arrival in Yugoslavia does fit with the Yugoslav's offensive into Hungary, so it stands to reason that they were sent to assist in said. The problematic bit, though, is that in April, the Italians partitioned Yugoslavia into Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia, and the Greeks annexed Macedonia. It seems odd that there's still an intact, unified Yugoslavian army after that, let alone one that would launch a major drive into Hungary.

Also, the Romanians aren't mentioned as being involved at all. According to the v.1 history, the Romanian military was shattered in September of 1997 and the survivors were fighting as partisans in the Carpathians- they would have had their hands full. At no point after 9/15/97 were there less than 7 Soviet divisions in Romania so I just don't see the Romanians participating in a major offensive anywhere other than on home soil.

CivGov sending 42nd ID in late '99 still doesn't make sense, though. Even with fried long-distance coms, by then, CivGov would have to know that turning things around in Yugoslavia was nothing more than a forlorn hope. And by then, Mexico and New America are firmly established as major threats to home soil (not to mention the potential of fighting MilGov forces). The only thing I can think of is that Romania declared its allegiance to CivGov in the spring of 1999, so perhaps sending 42nd ID was a show of solidarity by CivGov. If so, it was a very expensive- wasteful, even- symbolic gesture.

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Strong point. Tanks and IFVs might be useful in the suburbs, but in the built-up areas of the city, they'd be extremely vulnerable to Molotovs tossed from upper floors. If the OPFOR has access to LAW-type weapons, fahgettaboudit!

[Rainbow Six]

Rae, Im fairly confident thats a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Divisions 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

What I dont get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I dont claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where were at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. Id have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

[Raellus]

It Kinda Makes Sense

Rae, I'm fairly confident that's a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Division's 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

I'd totally agree with you if the v.1 history didn't support a late 1999 date for the dispatch of 42nd ID. It doesn't actually specify what unit was sent, but the history states that CivGov initiated the late war reinforcements, so the timelines match up.

The reference about IV Corps HQ accompanying 42nd ID suggests that, in late 1999, CivGov was trying to assume command of the US forces that had been in-country since mid-'98.

What I don't get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I don't claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where we're at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. I'd have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

I agree, but I have a theory to explain this. The Italians partition Yugoslavia in the spring of '98 but, in the summer, the Yugoslavian army tries to link up with NATO forces in Hungary. My hypothesis is that this rump Yugoslavian army was made up of a Serbian majority. Since the Serbs were supporting NATO, and the US presumably sent those two light IDs to support that [majority Serbian] army driving into Hungary, the Croats got pissed off and got in the American's way. The US Army Vehicle guide mentions at least one of the US light IDs fighting Croatian separatists. The most likely port of entry for the US forces is Split, which is located in present-day Croatia. It actually seems kind of plausible.

At the same time, the Soviet forces sent from Romania in '98 most likely would have entered Serbian territory, perhaps provoking a strong anti-Soviet response from the locals. So, in this scenario, the Serbs remain aligned with NATO, and the Croats join the other side. This theory seems to line up with the end state established by the game writers, at least. I don't know if this alignment is what they were intending, or whether it was established by accident because they didn't have a firm grasp on Balkans history/politics, etc.

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[Rainbow Six]

Sorry, I don't agree about the 42nd. I'm convinced it's a typo.

From the US Army Vehicle Guide (bolding mine)

In the autumn of 1999, the [42nd] division was deployed by sea to Jugoslavia. Upon arrival it came under com- mand of US IV Corps, the headquarters of which arrived in the same convoy as the division's 2nd Brigade. The division entered combat against Croatian Nationalist Army units on 10/7/98.

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

As for IV Corps, it's stated in the write ups for the 76th and 80th Divisions as already being in country in 1998.

On 8/2/98, the [76th] division began moving overland to Virginia and suffered considerable casualties en route from bandit ambushes. The division arrived on the eastern seaboard in early October and began deploying to Jugoslavia by sea in late October. Upon arrival it came under command of US IV Corps and first entered combat on 11/5/98 against units of the Albanian Peoples Liberation Front.

The [80th] division was formed on 7/20/98 by redesignation of the 80th Training Division (U.S. Army Reserve) in Richmond, Virginia. In October of 1998 the division was deployed by sea to Jugoslavia where it came under command of the US IV Corps and entered combat against Croatian Nationalist Army units on 11/1/98.

The only way that's consistent with the HQ element of IV Corps arriving in 1999 is if the rest of IV Corps deployed in 1998 without its HQ element (and then waited for a year for its HQ element to arrive).

Personally, I take the view that all of IV Corps arrived in 1998, which would be consistent with the 42nd going into action against Croat forces in 1998.

I'm not sure about the Serb / Croat thing. I need to take a deeper dive on that.

[Spartan-117]

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

Maybe. Or maybe I now have a late Rad Zone contest entry involving 'rumors of a time-machine in Jugoslavia.'

[Rainbow Six]

Maybe. Or maybe I now have a late Rad Zone contest entry involving 'rumors of a time-machine in Jugoslavia.'

LOL...I was going to mention blue police boxes. Or a Delorean.

There's also a brief reference to the 42nd in Armies of the Night

By the summer of 1998, it became obvious that the harvest from the midwest was going to be very small and virtually impossible to transport. The newly formed 78th Infantry Division was assigned to New York City, replacing the detachments of the 42nd (which were being deployed to Jugoslavia).

Now, it's not conclusive as it doesn't mention an actual deployment date so I suppose they could have spent a year preparing for deployment but I doubt it...

[Raellus]

Sorry, I don't agree about the 42nd. I'm convinced it's a typo.

That's cool. I'm just trying to reconcile canon.

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

Yep, and the date that's wrong could be the 1998 one. 42nd ID could have arrived in Autumn of '99 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1999. That's entirely plausible.

As for IV Corps, it's stated in the write ups for the 76th and 80th Divisions as already being in country in 1998.

That's not in dispute.

The only way that's consistent with the HQ element of IV Corps arriving in 1999 is if the rest of IV Corps deployed in 1998 without its HQ element (and then waited for a year for its HQ element to arrive).

Not necessarily. Two light infantry divisions does not a corps make. If they were sent to support the Yugoslavian army's drive into Hungary in mid-1998, it's entirely possible that intention was to place the two US divisions under Yugoslavian command for the duration of the offensive. As it turned out, they couldn't link up with the Yugoslavs. There's really no reason that they couldn't still operate for a year or so without a dedicated corps HQ.

My reasoning is that, after the Yugoslavian gov't recognizes CivGov's legitimacy in the Spring of 1999 (as per the v.1 history), CivGov decides to lay claim to the two US divisions stuck in Yugoslavia, thus solidifying CivGov's presence in SE Europe, so it sends along a Corps HQ when it dispatches 42nd ID to Europe as reinforcements in the autumn of '99.

The v.1 history states, "In the autumn [of 1999], the dispatch of troops to Europe resumed, although only as a trickle. Initiated by the civilian government... the call-ups affected only the Atlantic coast..."

The 42nd ID checks off all of those boxes. Atlantic Coast- check; deployed by CivGov- check; arrived Autumn '99- check. AFAIK, it's the only US division in the US Army Vehicle Guide mentioned as being deployed to Europe, by CivGov, in late 1999. It all fits, but for that one typo. It's all circumstantial, but the majority of the evidence supports 1999 as being the correct date.

It may not be pretty, but it all lines up.

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[Olefin]

And MilGov was organizing forces to go after the Mexican invasion in mid-1998- if you look at the US Army Sourcebook there are repeated references to units being sent into action against the Mexicans - i.e. if the comms are that badly fried how did some units get contacted and sent into action and others didnt

And a three division Corps - especially one that had at least a division with heavy armor- would have stopped the Mexicans cold most likely and probably taken care of the Texian Legion once and for all in Texas.

Plus how the heck was CivGov going to support the troops they sent to Yugoslavia At least the units in Germany and Poland and Austria had some logistics and remaining ammo - but once those three units arrive in Yugoslavia they are basically on their own.

FYI I also agree that the authors didnt do their research on the people's of Yugoslavia - the Croats would have been allies for sure of the US not the Serbs - the Serbs have always been the ally of the Russians. And given the real world events of what happened in Yugoslavia I dont see the Bosnians as being pro-Soviet either. A much more likely alignment is the Croats joining up with US forces along with the Bosnians and the Serbs joining up with the Soviets - with the Greeks and the Macedonians and Albanians fighting among themselves and the Slovenes trying to support German and Austrian forces

[Raellus]

Yugo Your Way, I'll Go Mine

Like I always say, you're free to do what you like with your T2kU. I'm trying to find a way to reconcile what's in canon. I think I've figured out a plausible way* to arrive at what's established in the v1 history and vehicle guides. It ain't pretty, but it works- the pieces fit. If you prefer to go a different route, more power to you.

I find canon-bashing to be kind of a futile exercise. It is what it is, and no one's going to change it. As Ref's, though, we're free to modify it to suit our own sensibilities. In my mind, it's better to find ways to make canon work than to RETCON it, but that's just my POV and I'm not trying to push it on anyone else.

It'll be interesting to see what Free League does with Yugoslavia, if they touch on it at all.

*Thanks again to Southernmap for finding the missing piece- a good reason for the US to send two light infantry divisions to Yugoslavia in 1998.

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[pmulcahy11b]

I'm not sure about the Serb / Croat thing. I need to take a deeper dive on that.

My mother is Croatian; Croatians HATE Serbs and vice versa. It's racist, etc. but there it is. It's long, deep, unreasoning hatred that goes back to the days that the Ottoman Empire was the local superpower. In addition, the Serbs tend to side with whoever is the winner -- they were the first to side with the Nazis, and Austro-Hungarians, and Tito. (As a matter of fact, Tito is the only this that drew some Croats and Serbs together.) But my mother still distrusts Serbs, even though she cannot give you many logical reasons why.

[bash]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998 The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia" There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

My problems:

• The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic
• By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med
• Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.

Now I could maybe buy a POMCUS setup where there's vehicles and supplies in Yugoslavia but they need warm (trained) bodies to operate them. So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.