Yugoslavia

[Olefin]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998 The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia" There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

My problems:

• The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic
• By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med
• Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.

Now I could maybe buy a POMCUS setup where there's vehicles and supplies in Yugoslavia but they need warm (trained) bodies to operate them. So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.

And keep in mind that there would still be Italian and Greek naval ships left as well - and all it takes is one or two destroyers to really screw up your day if you dont have any escorts.

And you definitely need a port in at least decent shape to disembark the tanks of the 42nd - you can get troops and mortars and even towed howitzers off a hell of a lot easier than a bunch of tanks

[Raellus]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998 The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia" There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

You're right, but canon says it happens, so I'm trying to answer those questions. The best I can come up with ATM is that the Pentagon believes it can win the war in Europe, after which it could bring most of its troops home to eject the Mexican military and restore law an order.

As for Yugoslavia, it shares a border with Romania, a new NATO nation in which canon tells us there are oil fields/refineries still capable of producing fuel.

My problems:

• The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic
• By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med
• Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.

Those are legit, but I don't think any of the obstacles presented are insurmountable

-The v1 history says a few naval vessels are are cobbled together to serve as convoy escorts.

-Nuking Gibraltar is not going to close the straits. Now the French navy, that's another proposition. But if the US made clear through diplomatic channels that the convoy was en route to the eastern Med, why would the French risk trying to stop them Does France really want to risk going to war with the US (especially in the nuclear phase of the conflict) just to display dominance in the western Med

-Split's got decent port facilities. Neither of the divisions sent in 1998 had heavy armor. The 42nd ID only has a dozen M60s or so. Split could handle that.

So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.

That would definitely be faster, but if the Greek and Italian navies could stop a sea convoy, their air forces could stop some airliners. It's more likely that, by mid-98, the Greek and Italian navies had been effectively neutralized, and/or the USN escort force was strong enough to deter them or keep them at bay. And ships are better at transporting bulk supplies (rations, ammo, etc.) than aircraft.

[bash]

Nuking Gibraltar is not going to close the straits. Now the French navy, that's another proposition. But if the US made clear through diplomatic channels that the convoy was en route to the eastern Med, why would the French risk trying to stop them

I don't mention Gilbralter being nuked to suggest the straight would be closed. It's does mean there's no friendly force/port for an American convoy in the Strait. By 1998 I wouldn't consider the French as allies, not enemies but definitely not allies. I don't see the French having any reason to let an American convoy into the Med unless it was specifically to evacuate American forces.

Not everything has to make sense but it's one of those things that just sounds really weird and doesn't make any sense. The writers did it for a reason but it's still weird looking back on it.

If the Greek and Italian navies could stop a sea convoy, their air forces could stop some airliners. It's more likely that, by mid-98, the Greek and Italian navies had been effectively neutralized, and/or the USN escort force was strong enough to deter them or keep them at bay.

I would assume the Italian and Greek navies are coral reefs and their air forces non-existent by 1998. If the French are going to let an armed American convoy sail into the Med I don't see why they won't let some airliners through. They'll have a faster transit, you know they don't carry heavy weapons, and if they so much as sneeze in the wrong direction they'd get shot down.

[Raellus]

It's a Stretch, But...

I don't mention Gilbralter being nuked to suggest the straight would be closed. It's does mean there's no friendly force/port for an American convoy in the Strait. By 1998 I wouldn't consider the French as allies, not enemies but definitely not allies. I don't see the French having any reason to let an American convoy into the Med unless it was specifically to evacuate American forces.

Right, but why risk war with the US by refusing the convoy passage The US has already proven itself more than willing to huck a nuke or several at its enemies. Is that a risk the French would take to stop a convoy headed for Yugoslavia, a country in which it has little to no strategic interest c. 1998 (compared to other parts of the world) Americans in Yugoslavia are not going to be able to help Germany stop France from annexing the Rhineland. Why turn them back so they could divert to NW Europe instead

I would assume the Italian and Greek navies are coral reefs and their air forces non-existent by 1998. If the French are going to let an armed American convoy sail into the Med I don't see why they won't let some airliners through. They'll have a faster transit, you know they don't carry heavy weapons, and if they so much as sneeze in the wrong direction they'd get shot down.

Maybe so, but the Italians and Greeks still presumably have operational SAMs. As recent events have shown, airliners are very vulnerable to SAMs.

As you pointed out, when it comes to the Balkans, the writers made some decisions that are pretty hard to explain/justify, but that's what I'm trying to do.

[Jason Weiser]

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Similar, examining the Allied Forces experience going through the German forces in Europe and the German forces experiences in Russia showed that armor even then would be dangerous. Which lead to the Soviets to develop the assault guns with a 122m to 152mm gun installed and the Germans to do things like the Strumpanzer and Strumtiger. While the Allied forces never developed specific urban assault vehicles.

There are some other considerations

1. The fact is, heavy equipment on the streets of NYC when it's in the grips of chaos isn't going to improve anyone's calm either. Light and calm might have been a thought of someone in charge, but here's a question The 78th was loyal to MilGov, but the 42nd sided with CivGov. Was CivGov's deployment of the 42nd one of those "dirty tricks" alluded to in the v1 Referee's Guide "Hey, let's force MilGov to worry about policing NYC, we've got the troops and the means to send them, let's show everyone we're just as capable as they are to still reinforce Europe!" (No comment about how dubious a decision this is). And, here's an open question Who in the heck did the NY State Government side with They never did establish that. (Nor did they for most of the other state governments, not that many of them are intact by 2000)

2. Consider the other divisions sent, IIRC, were light divisions formed from Training divisions, which means a cadre of DSs and other training and support staff formed around a mass of half-trained basic trainees This cannot portend well for these ersatz divisions. It's one thing to use them against marauders, or lawless elements in the US, but send them to Europe and sic them on the Soviets et. al without some means of "stiffening" Probably not a good idea (Probably the only good idea in the entire enterprise). I can so see a staff officer at IV Corps saying as they embarked "Is this trip really necessary" I just cannot see the military necessity for this at all. Even before the Mexicans invade, let alone after. But, there's plenty of real-life examples of military stupidity abounding.

3. As for the French, well it's not just the nukes. If I am France, I don't mind if the American governments fritter away their remaining strength in useless gestures to impress governments who could care less. It helps me in the long run. And if the Americans are forced to ask France for help getting out Sure, of course we'll help...no charge at all. But the world will see a broken "superpower" being helped out of a jam of it's own creation by a resurgent France. And that is something France wants the neighborhood to see.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

[Raellus]

Not Inconceivable

Jason, those are some good points.

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

I think this is overstating the case. Certainly, having MBTs is better than not having them, but by mid-to-late 1998, the Yugoslavs probably have very few, if any, MBTs of their own. They've been at war for at least a year and a half, and have been fighting one or more (usually more) of the following armies- Soviet, Hungarian, Italian, Greek, and Albanian- during that time. If the Yugolsavs have any operational MBTs by the time the Americans arrive, they're probably antiquated T34-85s. The US light divisions certainly would certainly arrive with enough AT weapons to handle whatever tanks the Croats (for example) could manage to throw at them.

The Soviets show up in Yugoslavia shortly after the Americans but, AFAIK, there's no mention of the two superpowers fighting each other in Yugoslavia. The VGs mention the US fighting Croatian and Albanian separatists, and the Soviets fighting "Yugoslavian partisans".

Considering how long Tito's partisans (no tanks) survived against the Wehrmacht (some tanks) in WW2, those two American light divisions could last the two years between their arrival and the T2k "start date" of July 2000 or so without the 42nd ID's tanks.

Also, it's quite possible that the 42nd lost some of its tanks during the Atlantic crossing. There would probably be a few Soviet subs still lurking about in mid-98 and beyond.

[swaghauler]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

I have to question the need for lots of ships to transport 58 tanks and 120 M113s. The Algol class Fast ROROs (Roll-on-roll-off) operated by SEALIFT Command wouldn't break a sweat hauling that and they can do it at 30 knots sustained speed. The USS Denobula carried all of the 10th's SEVEN HUNDRED TRUCKS with room to spare and it is rated for about 750 heavy wheeled vehicles.
In fact, these ROROs are built like parking garages with ramps connecting the various decks. There is a heavy ramp both at the stern and along the side amidships with a lighter ramp unfolding from the bow. In Somalia, we would drive into them from the amidships ramp down into the bowels of the ship and begin a caravan up each deck before leaving from the bow ramp on the weather deck. Each deck would have palletized supplies stationed in the middle of the cargo deck for loading by overhead jib cranes into our trucks with different cargos (food, ammo, medical supplies, and repair parts) on each deck. We would pull onto the outside travel lane painted on a deck, get pallets loaded by crane and then drive up to the next deck for their cargo drop. Repeating this level by level until we had all our supplies. We would then drive down the bow ramp to leave. It was both fast and efficient

The new BOB HOPE class RORO, which was commissioned in 1998, can carry 1,000 heavy vehicles plus freight in her bowels.

Carrying a couple of hundred vehicles is a JOKE to SEALIFT Command.

[Olefin]

I have to question the need for lots of ships to transport 58 tanks and 120 M113s. The Algol class Fast ROROs (Roll-on-roll-off) operated by SEALIFT Command wouldn't break a sweat hauling that and they can do it at 30 knots sustained speed. The USS Denobula carried all of the 10th's SEVEN HUNDRED TRUCKS with room to spare and it is rated for about 750 heavy wheeled vehicles.
In fact, these ROROs are built like parking garages with ramps connecting the various decks. There is a heavy ramp both at the stern and along the side amidships with a lighter ramp unfolding from the bow. In Somalia, we would drive into them from the amidships ramp down into the bowels of the ship and begin a caravan up each deck before leaving from the bow ramp on the weather deck. Each deck would have palletized supplies stationed in the middle of the cargo deck for loading by overhead jib cranes into our trucks with different cargos (food, ammo, medical supplies, and repair parts) on each deck. We would pull onto the outside travel lane painted on a deck, get pallets loaded by crane and then drive up to the next deck for their cargo drop. Repeating this level by level until we had all our supplies. We would then drive down the bow ramp to leave. It was both fast and efficient

The new BOB HOPE class RORO, which was commissioned in 1998, can carry 1,000 heavy vehicles plus freight in her bowels.

Carrying a couple of hundred vehicles is a JOKE to SEALIFT Command.

The convoys in 1998 per the canon had CivGov and MilGov scraping up some cargo ships to get the troops across with a few escorts - I agree with you those RORO ships could handle the 42nd easily - but from how its described its more like ramshackle old freighters and transports that are pretty much either the bottom of the barrel or below the bottom of the barrel

[Olefin]

Jason, those are some good points.



I think this is overstating the case. Certainly, having MBTs is better than not having them, but by mid-to-late 1998, the Yugoslavs probably have very few, if any, MBTs of their own. They've been at war for at least a year and a half, and have been fighting one or more (usually more) of the following armies- Soviet, Hungarian, Italian, Greek, and Albanian- during that time. If the Yugolsavs have any operational MBTs by the time the Americans arrive, they're probably antiquated T34-85s. The US light divisions certainly would certainly arrive with enough AT weapons to handle whatever tanks the Croats (for example) could manage to throw at them.

The Soviets show up in Yugoslavia shortly after the Americans but, AFAIK, there's no mention of the two superpowers fighting each other in Yugoslavia. The VGs mention the US fighting Croatian and Albanian separatists, and the Soviets fighting "Yugoslavian partisans".

Considering how long Tito's partisans (no tanks) survived against the Wehrmacht (some tanks) in WW2, those two American light divisions could last the two years between their arrival and the T2k "start date" of July 2000 or so without the 42nd ID's tanks.

Also, it's quite possible that the 42nd lost some of its tanks during the Atlantic crossing. There would probably be a few Soviet subs still lurking about in mid-98 and beyond.

I doubt there are any Soviet subs left by mid-98- if Last Submarine's description of the US and Soviet Navies is accurate. And also the US Army Sourcebook was very clear on what units got hit getting across - i.e. it mentioned several by name that ran into Soviet raiders and lost a lot of men and equipment getting to the front - and none of those three units have any losses mentioned in transit

Except one of the light infantry divisions that took some pretty good losses just crossing Virginia!

[Louied]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

Olefin,
By 1989 42 ID had three (3) Tank Bns, 1 Mech Bn & 6 H-Series Inf Bns
From my research it was one of the ARNG Inf Divs that they were going to experiment with a 3 AR 3 Mech 3 AA 1 TLAT Bn mixture.

[Olefin]

Olefin,
By 1989 42 ID had three (3) Tank Bns, 1 Mech Bn & 6 H-Series Inf Bns
From my research it was one of the ARNG Inf Divs that they were going to experiment with a 3 AR 3 Mech 3 AA 1 TLAT Bn mixture.

I am going with the unit as described in the US Army V1 Sourcebook as to how many tank and mech battalions it had - didnt check the V2.2. to see if its the same

[Louied]

Ole,

Forgot about that, I was thinking IRL

[Olefin]

Ole,

Forgot about that, I was thinking IRL

actually thats a good point for V4 - will they modify the units to match real life or keep them with V1 or V2.2. sourcebook descriptions

[Louied]

Olefin,

Great question, besides the ARNG Inf Divs, 9 ID was slated to become a Mech Div but in the interim was supposed to field both Mech & Motorised units.