Greece v. Turkey

[micromachine]

Spending Spree!

The sad thing about the spending spree(s) is that it is being done by administrations that are hovering on the brink of being insolvent. Both have purchased on both sides of the iron curtain, and will continue to do so as long as credit and production offsets are offered.
Would be very interesting to see what equipment is in the arsenal or each country by 2030, and how much of it they actually produce themselves "in house".

[Legbreaker]

How The country's been basically bankrupt for decades, only surviving because they scammed the EU into letting them join and then receiving massive bail outs. It's one of the reasons (amongst many) for Brexit.

[pansarskott]

Greece has modern tanks as well. Leopard 2A6 HEL

1.7 billion Euros worth of brand new tanks in 2006-2009, and an additional 183 Leopard 2A4s and 150 Leopard 1A5 (for some sum I haven't checked)

National debt in Greece in 2006 was about 215 billion Euros - 103% of GDP. But Germany wanted to sell, and we won't hear any complaints from them about Greece's military spending.

[Legbreaker]

But Germany wanted to sell, and we won't hear any complaints from them about Greece's military spending.

Given much of the cash to pay for it came from Germany in the first place.....

[swaghauler]

Isn't Greece "playing catch up" with Turkey Didn't Turkey recently launch an Assault Carrier (which they planned on flying F35Bs off of) and a bunch of new Frigates She also bought the S400 and a bunch of new tanks too, IF I remember correctly.

I think Greece is just trying to match Turkey's recent spending spree.

...as for Turkey's behavior...

She's been very aggressive in supporting factions that OPPOSE French interests in Libya. She even intercepted a French Frigate that was conducting a UN-mandated inspection of a Turkish freighter for weapons and other contraband that was headed to Libya. She has also "bullied" Greek and Italian vessels conducting inspections.

Turkey has actually ATTACKED [when attacking Kurds] US service personnel who were assisting the Kurds in fighting in Syria.

She has been extremely aggressive in the area around Crete with not only Greece but also Israel and Egypt.

I can see a conflict slowly brewing here.

[Olefin]

one thing the V1 and V2 game missed was the opportunity to play with old armor if you campaigned in Greece or Turkey - both countries still had a lot of old tanks and other armored vehicles hanging around in the late 90's - and if you add in Yugoslavia you get things to play with like old Hellcats and the like

the Greeks and Turks for instance still had M24 Chaffee and M47 Pattons going for V1, the Yugoslavs would have Hellcats and the Turks have M59 APC's

[Legbreaker]

one thing the V1 and V2 game missed was the opportunity to play with old armor if you campaigned in Greece or Turkey - both countries still had a lot of old tanks and other armored vehicles hanging around in the late 90's - and if you add in Yugoslavia you get things to play with like old Hellcats and the like

the Greeks and Turks for instance still had M24 Chaffee and M47 Pattons going for V1, the Yugoslavs would have Hellcats and the Turks have M59 APC's

Those vehicles (plus a few more) are in the vehicle guides for the most part.

[Olefin]

It mentions them but you dont see mention of them very much in any of the unit descriptions given for Turkey for instance. And if there is one thing missing from the original releases its a better description of the armies in the Balkans and also Italys

[Olefin]

Those vehicles (plus a few more) are in the vehicle guides for the most part.

Which vehicle guide are you talking about - not the V1 or V2

No Chaffee, No M47, no M59 APC, no Hellcat tank destroyer

The Chaffee is in Merc 2000 but not the others

Paul has them on his site but they arent in any official released guides

And the East Europe Sourcebook is frankly a joke - it has the Greek Army armed with Soviet tanks and vehicles - and the Turks have Russian equipment too

Now Paul has them - but nothing official at all- so not sure where you got that they are in official releases

[Lurken]

And the East Europe Sourcebook is frankly a joke - it has the Greek Army armed with Soviet tanks and vehicles - and the Turks have Russian equipment too

Hmm... Then I will put less credence to the book and what it claims is happening in Estonia.

[Legbreaker]

The Greeks (and Italians) are essentially Pact by 2000 - the offensive by Italy northwards did occur in conjunction with the Pact offensive at the same time into the same region.
Therefore, why is it so unbelievable the Greeks wouldn't have received some tanks from the Soviets

Also, why shouldn't Turkey have some soviet vehicles Couldn't they have captured them sometime in the proceeding several years After all, we've got evidence of US units using captured equipment for most of the war (the M81 for example in the Soviet Vehicle Guide captured and used since 1997).

[Olefin]

Leg - they have units exclusively armed with Soviet tanks - and the chances of that are zero - neither army had any Soviet tanks at all - zero - and the lack of any of the tanks that were in their actual armies makes that book basically worthless - its like a City of Angels on steroids (i.e where the heck did the Mexicans get all that Soviet equipment)

I basically ignore the whole Sourcebook as to what tanks the Greeks and Turks have - and remember the Turks are mentioned in the NATO sourcebook and it does tell what tanks their army actually has - all it would have taken is the author literally cracking open a GDW published official canon book that was available at the GDW office to get it right for Turkey

And I highly doubt the Turks - who got their asses kicked and their army destroyed in Thrace - have much in the way of any captured Soviet equipment

[Olefin]

example from the NATO sourcebook

Remember that these are prewar levels and do not represent the current (1
July 2000) condition of any unit. MBTs are either Leopard Is or M60s refitted to
M60A4 standards.

Also if you look at the two sourcebooks the Turks have a completely different order of battle in the official NATO sourcebook versus what is in the East European Sourcebook

The East European Sourcebook lists four divisions and one Corps with 62 total tanks

The NATO book lists one armored division, five armored brigades, nineteen various infantry divisions, four infantry brigades and three specialist brigades and a grand total of nine tanks - which is probably way way too low

The one book refers to the Turkish entry in the NATO book - but the two descriptions are two very different armies

[Legbreaker]

Why wouldn't they have units exclusively equipped with captured equipment It makes absolutely perfect sense logicistally to lump all of one type into one location.
If only recently captured, well, that's one thing, but given they've had quite a long time of relative stability to reorganise, I'm just not seeing any reason those tanks, etc wouldn't have been reassigned if only to ease the logistical and training issues.