Combat Rules

[headquarters]

I thought that I would start a thread discussing various issues or themes in the rules section . (If we dont have one already).To discuss things not covered in the rules or part of the rules that need discussion .

I want to start with a question :

has anyone used rules for backblast from RPGs in their game

What would be the DAMAGE STATS ( C:2 B:0 maybe )

[jester]

I have used this very thing several times. Since I have had characters do the following:

Fire a ARMBURST from within a room, and it fried the two other PCs and the firing PC didn't understand why he ended up suffering damage to a lesser degree.

A PC firing from inside a covered fighting position. He could of at least let the guy in his hole know. He didn't the bugger. So they all suffered less severe injuries.

Firing from inside the cabin of a wooden boat. Blew out the windows and left him smoldering and deaf, dazed and confused.

From inside a vehicle. Okay the vehicle had been hit multipe times and was on fire. And the other 2 PCs were gravely wounded, so this is the most understandable as they had little to loose. He did take out the BMP and only caused slightly more damage to himself and the other PCs.

What I do is have them loose initiative determined by the weapon fired and how confined the location. Firing from foxhole with overhead cover will blind you surely and make you deaf for a bit and scortch you depending on the sides so it will be minor other than letting everyone know you are there! Whereas firing from inside a closed concrete bunker with just 1 firing slit, your world will be rocked and the gase and flame have no where to go.

So, the PCs will loose their initiative as a result of the light and sound overload, much like a flashbang, suffering some concussion damage as well.

If they are in an enclosed room or inside a vehicle then they will suffer some burn damage too, this will all be relative to their position to the rear of the rocket, since most rocket backblasts are cone shaped, as for the actual damage, it all depends on the weapon and the confined space, but anywhere from mild burn to being hit with a HAFLA

[copeab]

Fire a ARMBURST from within a room, and it fried the two other PCs and the firing PC didn't understand why he ended up suffering damage to a lesser degree.

I wouldn't understand either, as it's one of the few recoilless weapons that can be (relatively) safely fired from an enclosed space, ejecting plastic flakes.

Unless all the descriptions I've read are wrong.

[headquarters]

Armbrust

Maybe the armbrust isnt the perfect example -maybe it isnt but that belongs in a technical thread.Say the backblast of an armbrust gives concussion damage -what stats
What about the rpg 7

the 84 mm carl gustav recoilles cannon that I have fired many times sure warrant C:2 B:0 imho.

what of the m72 -shot ot too.Wouldnt want my arm in front of the bacblast-stats on that

I am most interested in ANYONE using this -and the flashbang effect I hadnt thought of ! Good one.Keep it coming -I guess my always well armed players should be disturbed by the question.or warned maybe.

[TiggerCCW UK]

it's one of the few recoilless weapons that can be (relatively) safely fired from an enclosed space, ejecting plastic flakes.

On a similar note in the early '90s the IRA developed the PRIG (Projectile Recoiless Improvised Grenade) for use here in NI. It was essentially an improvised RPG that they used with reasonable success against the armoured land rovers that the RUC used here. They managed to largely eliminate the backblast by using a packet of digestive biscuits in a similar fashion to the counter shot flakes that the Armbrust uses. The main problem with the weapon was accuracy. Sadly on too many occasions they got lucky with them - a school friend of mine who had joined the police here lost an arm and an eye to a PRIG attack.

[Legbreaker]

the 84 mm carl gustav recoilles cannon that I have fired many times sure warrant C:2 B:0 imho.

what of the m72 -shot ot too.Wouldnt want my arm in front of the bacblast-stats on that

I can't remember the back blast danger ara on either of these two weapons off the top of my head, but...

From firing the "84" on the range, it was noted the corregations in the sand quite some distance away were changing from the noise alone!. This weapon is also absolutely spectacular when fired at night. The ball of flame issuing from the rear, especially when firing ILLUM rounds almost vertically is something to be seen - bit on the hot side around the legs too....

While at Canungra (one of Australia's two jungle warfare training facilities - the other being Tully and devoted to section (squad) skills), we were taught that the M72 in close terrain was next to useless due to insufficent range to arm the projectile. We were advised that turning it around and using the backblast could be quite effective up to a couple of dozen metres. Note this advice comes from combat veterans most who served in Vietnam and a few from as far back as Korea. The staff are amongst the toughest men I know, and would probably put most SF soliders to shame! (One officer was still going with three broken ribs and doing better than 90% of us fit and healthy types.)

[jester]

I got scortched once when selected to fire a LAW rocket, needless to say my trouser leg was chared after the firing. And the section leader of the 51s a freind of mine made note of that.

As for the armburst.

Yes it sends chips out the back that all cool and well, but it doesn't change physics. A round is launched downrange via combustion of some form of rocket right Where does the heat, gas and flash and fire go in an enclosed space I have never fired one, never seen one fire, but I do not buy the idea that plastic chips can eliminate all of that, reduce I can beleive but eliminate no. I mean burning gas is burning gas righ

I have heard that many of the earlier men who used rockets would have to hold their breath because of the fumes from the propellant.

My senior DI a Gunny used to man one of those multi barreled recoiless rocket launchers and I have known a few old timerss who used them too. They said it was like sitting in the middle of an explosion when they would fire their weapon. So, that is something to also consider how much pause does a gunner have to take because the gases disapate and his eyes can focus and his hearing return and he can breathe again

[copeab]

As for the armburst.

Yes it sends chips out the back that all cool and well, but it doesn't change physics. A round is launched downrange via combustion of some form of rocket right Where does the heat, gas and flash and fire go in an enclosed space I have never fired one, never seen one fire, but I do not buy the idea that plastic chips can eliminate all of that, reduce I can beleive but eliminate no. I mean burning gas is burning gas righ

The Panzerfaust III also uses a countermass (one souce says powdered iron, another plastic flakes) and requies only 2 meters of clear space behind it. The AT-4 CS uses salt water as a countermass.

Some other rockets use a soft-launcher, where a small charge ejects the rocket from the tube, then a few meters later the main motor in the rocket kicks in. This greatly reduces backblast.

While it would certainly be unpleasant to be behind any of these weapons when fired, I'm sure it's a low more unlpeasant to be behind a LAW or RPG-7.

[headquarters]

84 mm carl Gustav and LAW 72

I know the Swedes tested the 84 with 2 gunners with no hearing protection or helmets to see what kind of combat efficiency you get without.After some 60 rounds both loader and gunner were in effect temporarily deaf,had concussions and very disorientated.

I guess C:2 for direct contact with the blast stands to reason then .(being halved for every 8 meters out as pr core rules.)

I also think I will go to C:2 for the M72 based on the Aussie story and whatever little I have seen of it myself .

I would be happy to be corrected if anyone got anything .

As for the Soviet RPG-7 series ( the older versions are quite similar but with less caliber,different sights etc etc ) -I have a feel it gives a trashing backblast -but sadly never fired one .Anyone got any on this
Also of course the US "RPGs" like M82 SMAW or whatever it is called in real life ,the venerable "bazooka" -please try your hands on coming up with stats for me .

Next topic in the thread for those who are done with backblast follows shortly .(Anyone can start one though).

[headquarters]

ARMOUR PIERCING BULLETS,HANDLOADS,HOLLOW POINTS etc

The weapon remains the same ,but the available loads for it can vary a lot .

We used to have a lot of various ammo in our forces -black ring marked armour piercing .30-06 (7,62x63), tracers with red ring marks ,regular FMJs etc etc .

Same for the .308 we used later ( 7,62x51)

I guess this is also the case for other rifles and handguns out there.

Has anyone come up with stats for

-armour piercing rounds
-hollow points
-long range handloads/factory loads

please chime in with stats in regards to damage,penetration,range and recoil .

[copeab]

I thought GURPS had some specific backblast rules, but all I could find were generic ones for recoilless weapons in GURPS Vehicles.

In GURPS, weapons with a hot gas backblast have a lethat range of (bore in mm.10) yards and do 4d6 fire damage. In T2K terms, damge would probably be 4d10. For weapons that don't use hot gases, a divisor of 50 and damage of 1f6 (or perhaps 1d10) seems more appropriate, although GURPS only addresses hot gas backblast. I'd apply the damage to the firer if he didn't have sufficient room behind him, otherwise only to anyone unlucky enough to get in the way.

[TiggerCCW UK]

The weapon remains the same ,but the available loads for it can vary a lot .

We used to have a lot of various ammo in our forces -black ring marked armour piercing .30-06 (7,62x63), tracers with red ring marks ,regular FMJs etc etc .

Same for the .308 we used later ( 7,62x51)

I guess this is also the case for other rifles and handguns out there.

Has anyone come up with stats for

-armour piercing rounds
-hollow points
-long range handloads/factory loads

please chime in with stats in regards to damage,penetration,range and recoil .

I seem to remember seeing rules for AP ammo in a supplement somewhere where it stated that the damage was reduced by one dice but pen was doubled, but I may have dreamt it.

[Legbreaker]

Backblast

The backblast danger area for the 84mm L14A1 SRAAW (Carl Gustav) is listed as "60 metres long x 800 mils (45 degrees) from the axis".
The M72 has a danger area of 40 metres with the same angle as the 84mm.

From http://www.nvbmb.nl/downloads/b-gl-314-008pt-001.pdf

18. Backblast Area. The M72E5. The propellant gases escape to the rear of the launcher and can cause severe injury to personnel and damage to equipment located within close proximity to the breech of the launcher (Figure 5-3). The danger zone extends 40 metres to the rear of the launcher and has a base of 1600 mils. All personnel, equipment and flammable materials must be clear of this area. The total backblast danger area is 175 metres deep and includes a burst danger area in which no personnel are allowed. During training, the 40 metre danger area should be marked off and kept clear of all personnel and equipment. Forward danger area templates for both stationary and moving targets are shown

[Legbreaker]

I seem to remember seeing rules for AP ammo in a supplement somewhere where it stated that the damage was reduced by one dice but pen was doubled, but I may have dreamt it.

Not quite....
This is from the referees screen (or more accurately the booklet that comes with it).

Enhanced Damage Rounds: These rounds include a broad class of small arms rounds specially-designed to trade off penetration for increased tissue damage, usually by causing the round to widen, flatten, and/or fragment. Special rounds include hollow-points, mercury loads, reversed wadcutters, dum-dums, and a number of proprietary designs too numerous to mention. Such rounds are not suitable for military use (as they violate a number of international accords and their inferior performance against body armour makes them less suitable for most military firefights).
Special rounds are available only at the referee's discretion, and only in calibres between .22LR and .45ACP. They weigh the same as normal rounds, and cost the same. Availability is up to the referee, but they cannot be more common than the round they are based upon.
Add 1 to Damage value of enhanced damage rounds, but add 2 to the penetration value. When the penetration number equals or exceeds the modified damage number, it becomes Nil. For example: A standard 7.62mmN rounds has damage of 4, and penetration of 2-3-Nil. With enhanced damage rounds, the damage becomes 5, and the penetration 4-Nil (2-3-Nil plus 2 becomes 4-5-Nil, but since 5 equals the damage, value, it becomes Nil). The round will do more damage, but is less effective against body armour.

[jester]

Backblast:

Tghe newer rounds with the stuff be it salt water or iron dust etc may reduce the damage for someone in the backblast, but it will still put them out of action for a few moments giving them what amounts to stun damage.



As for the whole armor piercing thing:

Remember, alot of the markings on special ammunition is common and standard throughout NATO. I actualy had it in my magic book of knowledge that all good NCOs carried. And it was designed not just with common lettering but also with specific colors <colours for you European peoples> so that even if you didn't understand the language you could tell what type of round it was by the colored markings.

As or special ammo for small arms. I would usualy give it some kind of benefit like with incidiary it would give a chance per round to catch something combustible alight. For ammo since most modern small arms rifle ammo is steel core 5.56 had no special rounds, or all of it was however you want to say it.

Hollowpoint, would have moderate penetration value but I'd toss an extra dice for wounds.

As for something like 7.62 I never really included it as the round itself was pretty powerful as it was, and from personal experience I have seen 8mm and 7.62X54 go through sizeable pieces of steel and most target a belt fed 7.62 or 8mm or 30-06 round hit well for the most part the round would penetrate easily or not at all. Think about it, hitting a light vehicle it would penetrate easily, on a tank or armored vehicle however, it would have little effect.