On this day 25 years ago (Commentary Thread)

[pmulcahy11b]

Chico, what was that Spetsnaz team doing in Seattle

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There have been Spetsnaz sleeper cells in the US and most Western countries since Spetsnaz was first formed during the Cold War.

[Raellus]

There have been Spetsnaz sleeper cells in the US and most Western countries since Spetsnaz was first formed during the Cold War.

Right- I'm not questioning their presence in the USA. I'm just curious about what that particular team's mission was. Chico

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[chico20854]

January 28, 1997

The Headquarters, 41st Infantry Division is formed at Camp Atterbury, IN, taking command of the 33rd (Illinois National Guard), 73rd (Ohio National Guard) and 106th (Indiana National Guard) Infantry Brigades. (An unofficial alternative is the 41st (Oregon) Infantry Brigade, since the 106th doesn't seem to have actually existed!), as well as miscellaneous other independent service and support units.

Unofficially:

The Commonwealth Defense Attache, UK Lieutenant General Sir Robert Owens, at a reception at the Swiss Ambassador's residence in New Delhi, has a conversation with the Soviet defense attache, Colonel General Oleg Tulaev, about opening a dialouge on war termination. (This method of conducting negotiations was approved by the NATO heads of state earlier in the month).

Troops from the 1st Washington State Defense Force Brigade and sheriff's deputies surround the last Spetsnaz team member and kill him in a firefight as they attempt to detain him.

The US Navy activates helicopter squadrons HS-22, 23, 24 and 25 to fly SH-3 ASW helicopters and HC-10 to fly Sea King AEW helicopters from escort carriers.

The British Royal Fleet Auxilary places the repair ship RFA Assistance (former Stena Protector) into service following its conversion from a subsea service vessel.

A P-3C Orion of No 11 Sqn, RAAF attacks and sinks the Soviet Victor-I attack submarine K-454 in the Philippine Sea northwest of Palau.

The Soviet Baltic Front orders the 107th MRD to assist the MVD in hunting down pro-NATO partisans and their American Special Forces trainers in the Baltic Republics.

An all-out effort is launched to locate the Kirov-class battlecruiser identified the prior day. Patrol aircraft, bombers and ELINT aircraft fly over the North Atlantic. Another Soviet raider sinks the Panamanian cargo ship Toshka, sailing unescorted in the North Atlantic carrying civilian cargo to Spain.

Soviet long-range aviation switches targets to Brasov, Romania, and the large DAC truck and IAR helicopter plants in the city.

The Soviet offensive in Iran continues, with Pasdaran troops, now better trained and equipped with chemical protective gear, nonetheless overwhelmed by Soviet mechanized troops' firepower and mobility.

[chico20854]

Right- I'm not questioning their presence in the USA. I'm just curious about what that particular team's mission was. Chico

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They had several targets in the Puget Sound area on their list. Their dream was to strike the SSBN base in Bangor, Washington (they reconned it and decided that absent hijaking a helicopter they had little chance of overcoming the base's security and damaging a boomer). Other objectives included to damage the Boeing aircraft plants, disrupt deployment from the port of Tacoma and McChord AFB (as they did by shooting down the 767), possibly inflitrate Ft Lewis and assasinate the CG of 9th ID and the families of many I Corps commanders. There were also shipyards and refineries in the region, as well as the big Naval ammo dump at Port Hadlock.

I had the GRU direct that the Spetsnaz teams try to hide in urban areas, where they were more likely to be able to blend into the crowd than in a rural area or small town where strangers would be immediately noticed.

[chico20854]

yes, in peace time but if your going to be carrying helos. why not use them because what happens if that ship sinks with the helos on them. sometimes you have to learn on the job. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...er-ship-183127

The US does convert a couple container ships to serve as escort carriers. Stay tuned! A summary of the program is here.

For more info on how to do it, check out one of my favorite books.

[chico20854]

Great Stuff!
That looks a lot more likely than HMMWV mounted scouts! The tracks keep the mobility of the heavy ACR. I think the C-141/C-17 sortie count may have driven the real life choice of vehicles. The NLOS would be a useful addition. And there were M113 scout platoon organizations that included M901s and dragon mount M113s, so there may be a way to get some AT firepower back. Realistically the LACR would be a unit that would flow into theater by strategic air then do its tactical and operational movement by ground.

I agree, I think that LACR is one that is much more likely to be effective in a medium-intensity conflict. Against a Soviet tank army they're still out of luck, but in a light corps that was always a foregone conclusion. It seems from the US Army Vehicle Guide that the Army had decided to forgo some strategic mobility in exchange for additional tactical mobility and firepower in the light infantry divisions with the conversion of three battalions to various light mechanized and AGS battalions. Not a bad tradeoff in my opinion!

[Homer]

I agree, I think that LACR is one that is much more likely to be effective in a medium-intensity conflict. Against a Soviet tank army they're still out of luck, but in a light corps that was always a foregone conclusion. It seems from the US Army Vehicle Guide that the Army had decided to forgo some strategic mobility in exchange for additional tactical mobility and firepower in the light infantry divisions with the conversion of three battalions to various light mechanized and AGS battalions. Not a bad tradeoff in my opinion!

Yep. There's a scene in Sword Point where a BMP battalion rolls over a light infantry battalion so quickly the POV character doesn't even realize they'd done so. A platoon of 105mm armed AGS could have evened the odds a bit. Rediscovering the value of mobile, protected firepower in support of infantry seems to be almost generational in the US.

The AGS/113/109 equipped regiment was probably as much a casualty of the "peace dividend" as of any real bias for strategic mobility. Witness the deployment by air of a composite heavy battalion into an airhead during OIF I or the deployment by air of an USMC armored unit to Afghanistan. You can do it if you're willing to dedicate the sorties. Especially once the C-17 comes on line.

Being a little less armored is not as lethal in most parts of the CENTCOM AOR as it is in Europe or Korea with closer engagement ranges and heavy threats. In Iran and on the Arabian peninsula there are more areas supporting long range fires than in Europe, while a medium weight system is sufficient for the Armor threat in most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

[chico20854]

January 29, 1997

Qom falls to Soviets as Pasdaran resistance crumbles under the firepower of Soviet tank regiments.

Turkish troops capture Larnaca and advance on Limassol. The Greek government decides to deploy troops to Cyprus to resist the Turks.

Unofficially,

USAF Systems Command, responding to desperate calls to increase the supply of precision guided munitions, begins emergency test series to outfit the F-111 and F-15E strike aircraft with the AGM-142 Have Nap missile, currently in production and in the inventory for use on the B-52 as a conventional stand-off weapon.

The RFA Assistance departs Hull, England for Muscat, Oman to service RN and allied vessels in the Middle East.

Western TVD commander Marshall Slepnev orders Reserve Front to bring 4th Guards Tank Army, with two tank divisions, two motor-rifle divisions and two independent tank regiments, out of its reserve positions northeast of Poznan.

The Soviet raider Buliny, under the command of Captain 2nd Rank Mikhail Mischenko, attacks and sinks the German container ship Dubai Bay, en route empty to North Carolina to load ammunition.

The unidentified Kirov-class battlecruiser shoots down an unarmed HU-25 Coast Guard patrol airplane in the Atlantic. SACLANT orders the formation of surface action groups in Norfolk, Gibraltar, St Johns and Belfast to sortie against it when it is located.

Poor weather over Romania grants the country a reprieve from Soviet strategic bombing. In an effort to maintain its armored strength, the Romanian ministry of defense meets with several attaches in Bucharest.

A Soviet raider sinks the Panamanian-flagged bulk freigher Ocean Pearl II bringing grain into Lagos. The loss of the cargo exacerbates the food crisis in Nigeria.

US Navy SEEBEEs complete their work at Cocos (Keeling) Islands Airport in the Indian Ocean, having constructed barracks, a large hangar, additional ramp space and various support facilities sufficient to support a US or RAAF P-3 squadron.

[chico20854]

January 30, 1997

Nothing in the canon for today...

Strategic Air Command receives authorization from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to develop modified JDAM GPS-guidance kits for B-61 and B-83 nuclear bombs.

Aircraft from the carriers Constellation and Abraham Lincoln launch strikes against North Korean troops and artillery sites along the DMZ from the Yellow Sea.

The first South Korean container ship, the Hanjin Keelung, arrives in Charleston, SC for conversion to an escort carrier.

The Victory ship Earlham Victory exits the shipyard after reactivation and crosses San Francisco Bay to load cargo in Oakland. The WW II built ship had sailed for 8 years post war, mostly in support of the Korean and Vietnam wars. Also leaving the shipyard that day, the freighter John Lykes, reactivated after being laid up for nearly 18 months.

In light of Soviet long-range aviation's focus on Romanian tank and trucks plants, CENTAF launches Operation Night Breeze. USAF F-15Es, F-111s and F-117s, British, Luftwaffe and Marineflieger (German naval air force) Tornadoes launch six waves of attacks on Polish tank plant in Gliwice and the Martin tank plant in Czechoslovakia. The use of PGMs by the NATO aircraft allow the raids to be more successful than the Soviet ones, and production at both plants is severely curtailed.

The Soviet frigate SKR-58 hits a NATO mine while crossing the GIUK Gap and sinks. Three sailors survive and are captured by the US cruiser Leyte Gulf, patrolling the Gap.

The surface action groups formed the prior day sortie into the North Atlantic, joining the search for the Soviet battle cruiser.

The Greek 2nd Parachute Regiment arrives at Paphos airport in southwestern Cyprus and immediately rushes to defense of Limassol. V Infantry Division in Crete loads onto amphibious shipping. The Greek Navy deploys into Aegean and eastern Mediterranean.

Turkish troops in Bulgaria capture the town of Kotel in the Balkan Mountains (which run east to west across the country) after weeks of fighting in the bitter winter conditions.

Soviet bombers encounter a rude surprise when they return to the skies over Brasov, Romania - the city's defenses have been augmented by a battery of Patriot missiles of the 1st Battalion, 7th Air Defense Artillery, flown in from Germany. The American missiles down 8 bombers.

The 135th Field Artillery Brigade (Missouri National Guard) completes its deployment into Hamburg.

The Mobilization-only 113th MRD is called up in the Caucasus for service in the Balkans.

[pmulcahy11b]

Marineflieger. That's a new one on me. I put it in Bing and I'll definitely read about it later.

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters And in a Twilight 2000 timeline, why didn't they buy the AV-8 to operate off of some of the larger ships (They do have amphibious assault ships, though these are also basically helicopter carriers.)

[micromachine]

The Marineflieger was formed at the same time as the modern Bundemarine. The wikipedia article is a simplistic read on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marineflieger

[Raellus]

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters

I'm pretty sure the Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in the anti-shipping role.

IIRC, they also operated the Brguet 1150 Atlantic patrol/ASW prop plane.

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[Homer]

Marineflieger. That's a new one on me. I put it in Bing and I'll definitely read about it later.

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters And in a Twilight 2000 timeline, why didn't they buy the AV-8 to operate off of some of the larger ships (They do have amphibious assault ships, though these are also basically helicopter carriers.)

The late 80s/early 90s (and presumably T2K) Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in two wings focused on anti-shipping tasks with a secondary land attack capability; a patrol wing of Atlantic's; a wing of shipboard and land based Lynx ASW/ASuW and Sea King ASuW; and a utility/SAR/special projects wing of Dorniers, Sea Kings, and Atlantics. The Bundesmarine operated a handful of LCMs of the Barbe class, but nothing to take the weight or support the logistics of a Harrier. FWIW, the bundesmarine's envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

[Ursus Maior]

I'm pretty sure the Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in the anti-shipping role.

IIRC, they also operated the Brguet 1150 Atlantic patrol/ASW prop plane.

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Yes, they did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavi...(Marineflieger)

Until 1994, when CFE treat obligations kicked in, the Deutsche Marine (until 1990: Bundesmarine, engl. Federal Navy) operated two wings of 48 Tornado IDS each. They were employed in a naval strike, wild-weasel and reconnaissance role. In 2005 the second wing was disbanded, its Tornados transferred to the Luftwaffe for the same mission. Main strike missile was the Kormoran and later the Harpoon.

[chico20854]

The late 80s/early 90s (and presumably T2K) Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in two wings focused on anti-shipping tasks with a secondary land attack capability; a patrol wing of Atlantics; a wing of shipboard and land based Lynx ASW/ASuW and Sea King ASuW; and a utility/SAR/special projects wing of Dorniers, Sea Kings, and Atlantics. The Bundesmarine operated a handful of LCMs of the Barbe class, but nothing to take the weight or support the logistics of a Harrier. FWIW, the bundesmarines envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

Exactly, couldn't summarize them any better myself!