On this day 25 years ago (Commentary Thread)

[chico20854]

YOU'RE A YINZER

I did ROTC too. First at Allegheny College right behind the Admiral (Lee) and later in the unified program that included Allegheny, Ganon, Mercyhurst, and Edinboro Universities. All our "drills" were held at Edinboro. I still declined a commission though, I LOVED being on a gun crew and wouldn't give it up, even after they disbanded the 4th/92nd FA. That's how I ended up on active duty with the 10th Mountain during RESTORE HOPE.

I'm not a Yinzer, just went to school up there. After four years I'd had enough, but a year or two at Ft. Sill was enough to convince me Pittsburgh wasn't so bad so I went back for another couple years of school. Haven't been up there in 12+ years though...

The Carnegie Mellon ROTC battalion got consolidated into the Pitt one when I was there. Post-Cold War drawdown spelled the end of that unit and my comissioning; that's ok I had more fun being enlisted!

[chico20854]

i now you have a lot on your plate. but the attached might be use full. the first is civi trucks and cars for combat. the second is popeye that was almost made for the IDF (maybe a second supply point). the penguin can be mounted on a UH 60, and the old sea apache. I could see the 1st proposal being green lighted with 2nd being worked on or in test phase by this point in the war.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/dacia-duster_td/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeye_(missile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(missile)

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_...sea_apache.php

Thanks!

The USAF bought the Popeye starting in 1989 as the AGM-142 Have Nap; I'll have to write it into the timeline coming up. Likewise, I think the US Navy deployed Penguin from SH-60s; I have a photo of one being fired in my Illustrated History of the Third World War, page 84!

On Sea Apache, I think the limiting factor is going to be plant capacity... the MDD helo plant is running full speed producing for the Army, which still has several active-duty divisions with Cobras rather than Apaches, and once combat starts all production is trying to keep up with combat losses, and the US really didn't maintain war reserve aircraft stocks beyond the retired aircraft at AMARC and miscellaneous "hacks" in various units.

[chico20854]

Yep- the light cav TOE jumped out because the material is easy to train on (19Ds train on the HMMWV, .50 cal and Mk19 at OSUT and a monkey can use a TOW once its collimated), probably in production, and easy to move. But, re-equipping out of the full heavy ACR set (less RAS) that was left in CONUS by 3d ACR and shipped forward or dipping into some of the kit being shipped forward from the heavy division garrisons may make sense. Unless combat losses were higher than forecast, or subs/raiders got some of them. Maybe there is a plan to rapidly NET and re-equip some of the guard units coming over, even though cannon doesnt support this (36th ID still runs M113s and M60s in the US combat vehicle guide- OBE perhaps).

I could see a second refit of the 278th after combat attrition of the light vehicles in Poland. As history has shown, the 1025/1026/966/988 have limited survivability against most threats. Maybe the re-equipment with V series, peacekeepers, etc came after regeneration following losses early in the 97 campaign Plus, I cant see the USAF giving up airfield security and EOD vehicles as they are trying to protect airbases from SOF, UW, and UXO threats. There werent that many of them either.

Thanks! I like your idea and think I'll use it, re-equipping with the V-series and Peacekeepers after losing vehicles in Poland.

Don't worry, the light cavalry regiment will make a non-canon appearance in CENTCOM! Coming to a conflict near you!

[Homer]

Thanks! I like your idea and think I'll use it, re-equipping with the V-series and Peacekeepers after losing vehicles in Poland.

Don't worry, the light cavalry regiment will make a non-canon appearance in CENTCOM! Coming to a conflict near you!

Glad you can use it! I like the piece about war stocks being released. The 278th will still have an "interesting" war as an ACR without a RAS. The AHs and OHs play a large part in the cav being able to move fast and hit hard.

I pity the ACR(L) in combat against a medium or heavy force, especially in an offensive role. Low rate of fire against armored vehicles or field fortifications (and no stabilization), low vehicle survivability, can't breach mounted, and can only dismount scouts by removing crew from scout trucks. It's a little better on the defense. High PK and range of of TOW, ability to rapidly lay two scatterable minefields (air and ground volcano), can create lots of obstacles, and establish a deep security zone. Great for an austere theater though.

IRL, the ACR(L) was supposed to be HMMWV/M8 based according to MTOE, with 966s as substitutes for the M8. Apparently there were studies (pre-Stryker) of equipping the regiment with LAV-III and M8s. Budget killed the M8 and the LAV-III morphed into the Stryker to be "C-130 transportable".

I'm always awed by the amount of information GDW put in the various guidebooks. Just getting the details of reforger, mobilization, and reconstitution put together in a believable manner across a multi theater campaign took a lot of doing pre-internet. They did a pretty good job with projected tech and projects (the Stingray and RDF light tank were contending for Sheridan replacements long before the M8).

[cawest]

Thanks!

The USAF bought the Popeye starting in 1989 as the AGM-142 Have Nap; I'll have to write it into the timeline coming up. Likewise, I think the US Navy deployed Penguin from SH-60s; I have a photo of one being fired in my Illustrated History of the Third World War, page 84!

On Sea Apache, I think the limiting factor is going to be plant capacity... the MDD helo plant is running full speed producing for the Army, which still has several active-duty divisions with Cobras rather than Apaches, and once combat starts all production is trying to keep up with combat losses, and the US really didn't maintain war reserve aircraft stocks beyond the retired aircraft at AMARC and miscellaneous "hacks" in various units.

how about putting the helos on the deck of cargo ships when they are going between the US and warzones. they could act something to help with airdefense, Sidearms (ARM), and the harpoons and a blast warhead version of the Hellfire. subs do not like helos.

[Matt Wiser]

Sending an SSN into the Black Sea isn't a good idea. Only one way in or out...

[lordroel]

Sending an SSN into the Black Sea isn't a good idea. Only one way in or out...

You mean sunk ore mange to get out safely.

[chico20854]

January 26, 1997

Nothing in the canon for the day!

The San Diego harbor channel is fully reopened after removal of the wreck of the tug Janet Pommet, sunk by a Spetsnaz team on January 11.

photo
The Seattle barricade situation concludes with a massive explosion as a Soviet Spetsnaz team tries to break out of police encirclement; three police officers, a firefighter and five Soviets are killed. One Soviet escapes.

The Commonwealth Defense Attache, UK Lieutenant General Sir Robert Owens, is dispatched to New Delhi on "a special mission."

The artillery bombardment of the Oder bridgeheads continues. NATO commanders divert engineer battalions from restoring battle damage behind the lines to adding bridges across the river and constructing deep shelters for the troops.

Marshall Papkov, the Western TVD commander, is recalled to Moscow.

The 264th Engineer Group (Combat) (Wisconsin NG) begins loading vehicles and heavy equipment aboard the freighters Arabian Breeze and Cape Horn in Oakland, CA.

Soviet bombers return to the skies over Bucharest, inflicting more damage on the tank plant.

The Turkish 1st Battalion, 2nd Commando Brigade lands at Nicosia airport and immediately is engaged against Cyptiot police, customs and Army units.

The Turkish submarine Sakarya sinks the Soviet transport Volzhsky-10 bringing supplies into the beseiged city of Burgas, Bulgaria.

Turkish Army orders additional forces into Bulgaria to resume the northward advance while maintaining the isolation of Burgas.

A small USAF team consisting of contracting officers, communications specialists, weather observers and a small security detachment arrives at Point Salines Airport, Grenada to establish it as a minor transit stop for aircraft headed to Africa and the Middle East.

[chico20854]

how about putting the helos on the deck of cargo ships when they are going between the US and warzones. they could act something to help with airdefense, Sidearms (ARM), and the harpoons and a blast warhead version of the Hellfire. subs do not like helos.

That's practical only to a limited extent. Normally helos transported by sea are shrink-wrapped (see this photo) to protect them from the corrosion from the sea spray. The pilots and ground crew normally deploy by air and link up with their aircraft at the pier. Army helicopter pilots are not normally trained on shipboard landing procedures, which in the North Atlantic winter could be quite dicey. (The Canadian Navy developed a system to winch helicopters down onto the landing pad of frigates and destroyers!) The cargo ships are not normally set up to support flight operations (they would ideally need additonal lighting, firefighting, maintenance shops, fuel and oxygen supplies, an ordnance magazine, additional accomodations, fresh water and generators) and leaving room for flight operations and maintenance reduces the ship's carrying capacity. Of course there are workarounds, but most helicopters being deployed by sea will not be able to be flown along the way.

[chico20854]

Sending an SSN into the Black Sea isn't a good idea. Only one way in or out...

But, fortunately one controlled by an ally! At least until later in the year...

[chico20854]

January 27, 1997

Another busy day, except according to canon! Nothing official, but unofficially:

photo
Turkish amphibious ships land in northern Cyprus and disgorge the 39th Infantry Division. Local Turkish militias secure the landing site. Nicosia airport is secured and the remainder of 2nd Commando Brigade arrives on an airlift that includes requisitioned Turkish Airways airliners.

The last remaining Spetsnaz team member from the Seattle holdup hijacks a car in Bellingham, WA.

The USAF, on behalf of the Navy and Marine Corps as well as itself, orders an increase of JDAM kit production from 130 a day to 250 a day. McDonnell Douglas begins assembly of a second production line at its St Charles, Missouri plant to meet the demand.

The US Navy purchases three large, fast container ships from a South Korean company for conversion to escort carriers.

photo
The Marine Corps activates scout-bombing squadrons VMSB-341, 342 and 343 to fly AV-8C Harriers from the escort carriers.

The Freedom ship Utah Freedom is delivered in Galveston, TX; the Maryland Freedom is delivered in Pascagoula, MS.

The 479th Field Artillery Brigade (US Army Reserve) arrives at the port of Pohang, South Korea.

Special Forces troops of the 10th SF Group attack the air defense radar site at Liepaya, Latvia.

Colonel General Dmitri Slepnev, who started the war as commander of 2nd Guards Tank Army before assuming command of Second Western Front, is promoted to Marshall and named commander of the Western TVD (Theater of Military Operations).

An American ELINT satellite makes a startling discovery - emissions identified as coming from a Soviet nuclear-powered battle cruiser of the Kirov class. The Northern Fleet's ships (the Kirov, Frunze and Dzerzhinskiy) were all believed sunk in the Battle of the Norwegian Sea. One has apparently survived and slipped through the GIUK Gap.

Soviet bombers make a third attack on the Bucharest tank plant; losing a Tu-22 Blinder and another Tu-16. The three nights of raids have halted production entirely.

The Soviets renew their offensive in Iran, finally confident that they have ammassed sufficient supplies to sustain operations for a few weeks.

Marshall Papkov, former Western TVD commander, is shot for his failures in East Germany.

[chico20854]

That said, the Army had a variety of light cavalry and motorized infantry organization models using the hmmwv or jeep, up to the OTL ACR(L). With production of TOW, small arms, hmmwv, and potentially M198 howitzers presumably ramped up for the war in China, material may be available in quantity. This equipment is easily transported, supports existing doctrine, and uses existing logistics stockpiles. Plus, the combat mos manning numbers in the light ACR/CAV TOE are less than or equal to those of a heavy ACR or CAV unit. Any excess support personnel in HHTs and RSS can be released back as replacements. With a heavy squadron (+), all the separates (MICO, ADA btty, Sapper CO, and MP plt), and two reequipped light squadrons the regiment can still perform most reconnaissance and security missions. The biggest handicap would be the loss of the RAS, assuming that the helos were cocooned and shipped and not sent by strategic airlift.

I'm using this early post-cold war study as a basis for my light ACR, just with LAV-75/Buford/choose your favorite as the AGS and with LAV-25-series vehicles replacing the M113s and other miscellaneous armored vehicles. The only oddity is the ADATS (NLOS-M in the study) on a LAV-75 chassis that GDW put in the US Army Vehicle Guide, so there's a total of four companies in the army with this system instead of just three (in the 9th ID's ADA battalion)!

[Raellus]

Do Tell

Chico, what was that Spetsnaz team doing in Seattle

-

[cawest]

That's practical only to a limited extent. Normally helos transported by sea are shrink-wrapped (see this photo) to protect them from the corrosion from the sea spray. The pilots and ground crew normally deploy by air and link up with their aircraft at the pier. Army helicopter pilots are not normally trained on shipboard landing procedures, which in the North Atlantic winter could be quite dicey. (The Canadian Navy developed a system to winch helicopters down onto the landing pad of frigates and destroyers!) The cargo ships are not normally set up to support flight operations (they would ideally need additonal lighting, firefighting, maintenance shops, fuel and oxygen supplies, an ordnance magazine, additional accomodations, fresh water and generators) and leaving room for flight operations and maintenance reduces the ship's carrying capacity. Of course there are workarounds, but most helicopters being deployed by sea will not be able to be flown along the way.

yes, in peace time but if your going to be carrying helos. why not use them because what happens if that ship sinks with the helos on them. sometimes you have to learn on the job. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...er-ship-183127

[Homer]

I'm using this early post-cold war study as a basis for my light ACR, just with LAV-75/Buford/choose your favorite as the AGS and with LAV-25-series vehicles replacing the M113s and other miscellaneous armored vehicles. The only oddity is the ADATS (NLOS-M in the study) on a LAV-75 chassis that GDW put in the US Army Vehicle Guide, so there's a total of four companies in the army with this system instead of just three (in the 9th ID's ADA battalion)!

Great Stuff!

That looks a lot more likely than HMMWV mounted scouts! The tracks keep the mobility of the heavy ACR. I think the C-141/C-17 sortie count may have driven the real life choice of vehicles. The NLOS would be a useful addition. And there were M113 scout platoon organizations that included M901s and dragon mount M113s, so there may be a way to get some AT firepower back. Realistically the LACR would be a unit that would flow into theater by strategic air then do its tactical and operational movement by ground.