4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[Raellus]

I would interpret it as the same in both cases. Your least-stealthy team member is the gating factor. If that's the dude with AGL D and no Recon, well... better hope you brought overwhelming force in lieu of overwhelming surprise.

That's what I was afraid of. Unless everyone in the party has at least INT C, Recon C, the odds of surprising any group of "vanilla" Soviet soldiers (INT C, Recon C) is going to be less than even, every time.

The only way of improving the odds is to spend at least 5 minutes preparing to Waylay an approaching enemy. That time isn't always available. i.e. Successful hasty ambushes are probably not in the cards.

Raellus: I'd post a scout ahead of your party. Allows a player to take on a more significant role, and mirrors real life of an experienced group putting someone out front.

Absolutely. My concern is situations where the whole party is together, including its least stealthy (Low INT, Low/No Recon) members. IMHO, it's not realistic for every party member to have minimum INT C, Recon C (not without neglecting other important and/or oft-used skills, at least).

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[Spartan-117]

There are a few ways to generate positive modifiers from help, so maybe that could be used here.

I mean, if I, as an IT professional with little to no Recon skill, am out tromping around the woods with a Marine Scout/Sniper, I would expect him to 'help' me by telling me to Shut Up, Walk Slower, Stay Behind Me, Watch Where You Put Your Feet, Turn Off Your Flashlight, Watch To the Right, This Hand Signal Means Stop, This Means Go Prone, etc. Probably delivered with profanity, but you get the point. I wouldn't be operating with level 0 Recon when I was operating with him.

[Raellus]

There are a few ways to generate positive modifiers from help, so maybe that could be used here.

Great point. I was imagining pretty much what you described, but forgot (again) about the Help mechanic. Thanks for the reminder.

So, for an attempted Waylaying, with 5 minutes of prep (+2) and several characters helping (+3), the group Recon roll would go from a single D6 (INT D) to a D12 and a D6, correct Or since the PC with the lowest Recon skill has a 0 in same, would those modifiers only apply to the Attribute score

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[kcdusk]

So your starting from a RECON D6 with +5 modifiers.

so D6 turns into D10 + D10. Remember there is a line somewhere that says, or recommends, that you increase or decrease each dice alternatively. You don't just add modifiers to one or the other up to D12, then swap over and start increasing the other.

It might be you go from D6 to D12 + D6. But the odds of D10 + D10 i think are greater for the same modifiers. Does that make sense

[Raellus]

So your starting from a RECON D6 with +5 modifiers.

so D6 turns into D10 + D10. Remember there is a line somewhere that says, or recommends, that you increase or decrease each dice alternatively. You don't just add modifiers to one or the other up to D12, then swap over and start increasing the other.

It might be you go from D6 to D12 + D6. But the odds of D10 + D10 i think are greater for the same modifiers. Does that make sense

Yes, thank you. I'd forgotten the rule about balancing dice. When rereading said rule just now, it clearly states that if you don't have a particular skill, you use a positive modifier to step it up to D6. So, you are right- in the above scenario, one would roll two D10s. I like those odds a lot better!

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[Raellus]

Close Combat and Suppression

Do successful Close Combat (i.e. melee) attacks trigger CUF rolls I would assume so, but I can't find anything definitive in the Close Combat or Damage rules. The Suppression rules read:

If you are hit by enemy fire (even if the damage is fully deflected by armor or cover), or if one or more ammo dice in a failed attack against you show , you must immediately make a coolness under fire roll.

"Hit by... fire" strongly implies that this only applies when shot, or hit by an explosion. What about a fist, club, hatchet, bayonet, etc

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[Heffe]

Top of page 67 on the right hand side:

"Only firearms, heavy weapons and explosions can trigger suppression--not close combat attacks or attacks with bows and thrown weapons."

[kcdusk]

Agree with Heffe.

I don't think a hit in HTH would generate a CUF.

However, a CUF check could work like "stun" does in other games You essentially go full protection mode, unable to strike back.

[Raellus]

Shaped Charge IED Damage

Thanks, Heffe. I hope I'm not annoying anyone with these questions for which the rulebook states definitive answers.

I don't think a hit in HTH would generate a CUF.

Mike Tyson would probably have something to say about that, but I'm fine with it.

Next question- it's more of a scenario, really, but I want to make sure that I am understanding and applying the relevant rules correctly.

The party vehicle, a BTR, it hit by an shaped charge IED (Blast power B, 3 direct damage). The IED rules state that shaped charges do +1 damage and have a crit level 1, but blast effects are stepped down by one (from blast B to C) for anything not receiving direct damage. So, this shaped charge IED does 4 direct damage.

The BTR has side armor level 4. 4 damage fails to penetrate. I roll vehicle hit location and look at the "did not penetrate" column. The hit location is 9: Commander.

So, the PC riding in the vehicle commander spot- in this particular case, the team sniper with the unit's best Recon score- takes 4 damage and, since the crit level of a shaped charge is 1, automatically takes a crit. I roll on the hit location die and torso is the result. The PC was riding with his torso exposed, so I don't have to worry about cover rules for him (see my next question). Anyway, the vehicle "commander" takes 4 damage to the torso. I roll on the crit table for torso and he lucks out with "broken collar bone". I roll two D10s for blast damage and neither shows targets, so he escapes blast damage (which would likely have killed him).

EDIT: Just looked at the vehicle hit location/component table again. Commander is listed on the penetration side. For 9, on the non-pen side, it reads Ricochet. So, if I'm reading the rules for Ricochet Component Damage correctly, the lookout doesn't take direct damage. Instead, I have to roll CUF for everyone riding "exposed". I rolled for the "commander" and he passed. That's a big swing from a 4 damage torso Crit broken collarbone to no damage at all.

Which of the two interpretations above is correct

Now, besides rolling CUF for all exposed passengers, I roll Blast C damage. The driver had only his head exposed. I rolled hit location for him and it came up torso. Since his torso was behind cover, does he take damage The gunner (inside an armored cupola) and a couple of PCs riding upright in the air guard hatches are in the same situation, so this question applies for them as well.

Last, but not least, since the shaped charge IED did not penetrate, and the vehicle damage location was Commander, the BTR doesn't actually sustain any damage, correct

Odd result, if so, but I can roll with it.

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[Raellus]

Application

The reason I asked is that, for the last 3 weeks, I've been running a solo campaign with the 4e rules, to learn them through application.

I've written the campaign so far in narrative form, including Ref's notes to talk through how I applied the pertinent rules. If you're curious, the campaign log can be found here:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpp=92322&posted=1#post92322

See post #12 to see how I applied the Shaped Charge IED rules queried above.

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[kcdusk]

Page 67 of the players manual says if you are hit by fire, and fail a CUF, you must drop prone and loose both actions next turn.

I've found sometimes hitting a NPC, not doing damage (body armour) or very little damage, and the NPC fails their CUF and drops prone. Now, he can often be out of my LOS and so by failing his CUF it feels like he can gain an advantage of being harder to hit (due to being prone) or being out of LOS completely.

Sometimes i think i'd rather hit and kill. Or have the PC pass their CUF. Thoughts

The only other thing i can think of is, if a NPC fails CUF and goes prone. Can my PC cover ground to get to them knowing the NPC looses their actions next turn This also raises the question of if my PC knows they are suppressed or not to risk moving towards them.

[Raellus]

An enemy failing CUF and going prone behind full cover could be a problem (like the scenario you mentioned), but there are a couple of ways that you could take advantage of it.

Have a PC set up over-watch on the spot. When the bad guy rears his head, you're ready to pop him before he can regain the initiative.

If the suppressed enemy's position it's within 50m or so of a PC with good mobility, have said PC rush to within hand grenade range and frag him.

Fire and maneuver.

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[kcdusk]

Something i like about V4.0 in combat, is how the to hit dice and ammo dice work.

A skilled operator rolls D12+D12 and is likely to get a hit, or get multiple successes (>10), with a single shot/bullet.

An unskilled operator rolls D6+D6 plus a handful of ammo dice. The result is maybe a hit (rolling a 6), maybe a suppression. But a boat load of ammo expended, truely spray and pray.

I think this reflects reality well. (Less bullets more hits) verse (lots of bullets and less likely to hit).

I feel like in V4.0 that generally, i see my characters and NPCs using much more bullets than previous editions. I've found this a good thing for two reasons. One, during battle ammo runs low and mag change are needed. Add a tense pause in combat!

Secondly, it does mean burning through ammo that you really do need to start worrying about how many rounds you can carry on your person due to weight. And how many actual magazines do you have I used to have 100 rounds on me. But now i need to break it down to how many full magazines i have.

Whats a "normal" number of magazines to carry 4 6 8 While on patrol for example.

[Homer]

I hope this helps- everything I'm writing is based on the pre-MOLLE days, but the round counts still hold for MOLLE.

Basic load for the M16/M4 is 210 rounds, 7x30 round mags, or 2x ALICE pouches. Anecdotally, riflemen in some light/airborne/air assault infantry may carry 300-360 rounds (10x30 rd mags) in 4xALICE pouches. The 249 basic load is 600 rounds in 3x200 round hardpacks with 2x SAW pouches. Again, this may be increased in some units by an additional 200-400 rounds or more, normally carried in additional SAW pouches or a "rigger made" pouch. The additional SAW belts are normally in 100 round soft pouches (aka nutsacks). Doctrinally the basic load for a 203/320 is 24 rounds (20 HE/HEDP and 4 ILLUM) carried in a grenadier vest (18 rounds-14/4 with some versions). This varies greatly based on mission requirements, with fewer grenades being carried for short duration patrols, or additional grenades carried on belts, clip on packs, etc. An M60/240 would have a basic load of 600 rounds in 6x100 round belts which are packed in cotton bags with a carrying strap. Sometimes these are carried in SAW pouches, repurposed butt packs, or unit made ammo bags- one unit anecdotally going so far as to have "rigger made" ammo bags held on slings that allowed the AG to feed the gun from the prone with the ammo bearer carrying more in an assault pack and unit members to drop the bags at the support by fire position as they moved up. Extra 7.62 belts are normally carried by the AG and ammo bearer or distributed around the patrol (P for plenty with MG ammo). The gunner usually doesn't patrol with the full 100 rounds on the gun, but carries a 20-40 round "starter belt' with the AG to feed the rest upon contact. For a raid or ambush, belts may be linked together to form a 200 or more round belt for continuous fire. Gunners may carry an M9 with 3x15 round mags, but pistols have a tendency to get scarfed up by LTs, senior NCOs, and the battalion staff if MTOE isn't enforced (plus that's extra weight; and the 9mm is really a woobie for most fights). SDMs with 7.62mm weapons usually carry between 100 and 180 rounds in 5-10 20 round mags carried in 2-4 ALICE pouches. If a breaching shotgun is carried, usually a dozen rounds will be carried in an ALICE pouch plus a full magazine in the shotgun.

The amount of ammo carried is a continual compromise between likelihood of contact, availability of resupply, and difficulty of movement. Ammo pouches may also be repurposed to carry frags/smokes especially in thick vegetation. Or be modified to carry radios or personal medical kits (with a prominent Red Cross paint markered on pouch). 200 round SAW pouches often find their way to secondary purposes as NVG, admin, or demo pouches.

AT4's, LAWs, demo, pyro, and claymores as required. Normally at least one AT4 in a fire team. Riflemen are supposed to carry 4xfrags. Frags, smokes, and other grenades are normally issued and adjusted mission dependent. Gunners and MG crew, medics, SDMs, and leadership/specialist personnel tend to carry fewer or no frags but carry smoke and pyro. In urban warfare or when assaulting a fixed position expect to see extra grenades carried in claymore bags, saw pouches, or 2qt covers on a sling.

[swaghauler]

Page 67 of the players manual says if you are hit by fire, and fail a CUF, you must drop prone and loose both actions next turn.

I've found sometimes hitting a NPC, not doing damage (body armour) or very little damage, and the NPC fails their CUF and drops prone. Now, he can often be out of my LOS and so by failing his CUF it feels like he can gain an advantage of being harder to hit (due to being prone) or being out of LOS completely.

Sometimes i think i'd rather hit and kill. Or have the PC pass their CUF. Thoughts

The only other thing i can think of is, if a NPC fails CUF and goes prone. Can my PC cover ground to get to them knowing the NPC looses their actions next turn This also raises the question of if my PC knows they are suppressed or not to risk moving towards them.

I have been party to a House Rule in MUTANT: YEAR ZERO that would work for you here...

The rule involves a "Success with a cost" or "degree of failure" rule.

Whenever you are confronted by a natural obstacle (no opposed roll), you set a threshold of 3, 4, or 5 for a failed roll. IF the PC/NPC fails within this margin, they can try the task again with a DIE REDUCTION for the next attempt. So...
A PC tries to climb a chainlink fence with a Threshold of 3. If they fail but roll a 3, 4, or 5, they are still hanging on the fence and can roll next round.
In the case of your CUF test, a failure with a 4 or 5 could result in a go-prone response, BUT on a 2 or 3, they just stand there screaming like a woman in a 50s horror movie.

For opposed tests like trying to intimidate an enemy soldier you ran into on the road, you must BOTH fail your rolls. IF your rolls are HIGHER than the NPC's rolls, you may try to intimidate them again. IF their failed rolls are higher than yours, NOTHING you will ever do will intimidate them until circumstances change per the GM.