4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[Raellus]

Having gotten over my initial skepticism, and started to wrap my head around the 4e rules & mechanics, I am eager to give them a try.

Why is only one PC allowed to Keep Watch as an action during marches Although I understand the intent to cut down on die rolls, this mechanic seems a bit odd. First off, the roll can't be pushed. Other PCs can't Help with the skill check either. And doesn't this mean that the PC with the highest Observation skill is pretty much stuck always assuming the role of keeping watch during patrols. It all seems a bit all-or-nothing for a task that, IRL, more or less every member of the team would be actively participating in whist moving through disputed and/or enemy-held territory. Is there something that I'm missing

Also, why do MGs (but not SAWs) have a slower ROF than assault rifles This also seems odd. MG ammo types have a higher damage per hit, but being able to roll more hits with an assault rifle negates this advantage, does it not Again, is there something that I'm missing

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[Spartan-117]

Why is only one PC allowed to Keep Watch as an action during marches Although I understand the intent to cut down on die rolls, this mechanic seems a bit odd. First off, the roll can't be pushed. Other PCs can't Help with the skill check either. And doesn't this mean that the PC with the highest Observation skill is pretty much stuck always assuming the role of keeping watch during patrols. It all seems a bit all-or-nothing for a task that, IRL, more or less every member of the team would be actively participating in whist moving through disputed and/or enemy-held territory. Is there something that I'm missing
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This tracks pretty closely with 2.2 rules:

Spotting and Surprise: When a group of
characters encounters a group of NPCs, each
group has a chance of spotting the other (Difficult:
Observation). Spotting a group moving
in vehicles is Average: Observation. Spotting
a stationary and camouflaged group is Difficult:
Observation. The roll is made only once
per group, using the highest Observation in
the group. The asset level used is reduced by
one for each character in the group and by
five for each vehicle in the group. It is increased
by alike amount for numbers of characters
and vehicles in the group encountered.
However, the Observation asset used may
never be more than halved or doubled by
these modifications.

Observation: This column gives the Observation
value for the group. Not every character
in the group will be this good; instead, it
represents the best Observation available or
the Observation asset of the point man.

If you want to optimize a 2.2 party from a RAW mechanics POV, have one PC pour every available point into OBS during chargen. Have another pour every available point into Survival. These two skills control encounter ranges, the party's ability to avoid an encounter (which is critical if encounters are being generated randomly, RAW, and you roll a large or well equipped Patrol or Military Convoy) and food acquisition, which are base elements of gameplay.

Looking through FL's rules, that also seems to be a good base for an optimized 4e party as well.

[unipus]

Until either of those characters dies, then the whole party rapidly follows.

As for MGs - not looking at ROF specifically, but MGs in 4e are pretty weak using RAW. "More ammo" is essentially the one advantage they have, which has always felt wrong to me. I've played with house ruling it in a variety of ways (starting with reducing the default penalties for shooting them from -2/-3 to -1/-2, giving extra suppression dice chances, etc) but this supplement (yes, it's a bit overpriced for what it is, but full of good stuff) has an optional rule that has solved the issue for me, I think.

Essentially it includes a "recoil limit" for every weapon, which if you exceed (in ammo dice) from an unsupported position gives you a -1 penalty. That's it. Too simple Maybe, but I think it works fine for what it is. The recoil limit is typically 3 or 4 for assault rifles, and 2 for 7.62 battle rifles and MGs. An MG's bipod removes that penalty whenever deployed, letting you go full cyclic. Of course any other weapon with a bipod gets the same bonus, but those aren't super common. You can also remove the penalty by bracing your rifle, but that takes an action (and somewhere you could realistically brace it).

It's a nice easy rule that gets the job done and has tactical implications.

[Raellus]

Weapons & Vehicles

Thanks guys.

This is a minor quibble (and unrelated to my previous questions), but the Officer archetype lists starting weapons as an SMG or pistol, and presumes in the flavor text that the character is default American. However, there is no SMG listed under the US weapons in the rulebook, nor was any SMG standard issue in US Army regular(i.e. non-SOF) formations during the 1990s, IRL. The closest thing to a standard-issue SMG would be the M3 'Grease Gun' issued to AFV crews, but that was on its way out. Of course, one could use a foreign-made/issued SMG, but that seems like an arbitrary constraint that the other templates aren't bound by, so...

As a ref, I would house-rule this obvious error by allowing a US officer to take a carbine instead of an SMG. It was fairly common, in Vietnam at least, for officers to carry CAR-15s, and I've seen enough photos of officers in the 1980s and 1990s carrying M4s to justify it in the T2k '90s. I hope that if I ever play a US officer, the Ref will not hold my PC to the letter of the [rulebook] law for starting weaponry.

On a somewhat related note, I really like the weapon card illustrations in the 4e rulebook. The weapons and vehicles look more "alive" and worn than the line drawings of earlier editions. One thing that bugs me, though, is duplicate weapons. Why bother with separate weapons cards for the Minimi under US and Swedish weapons, and the RPK under Soviet and Polish weapons The stats are identical. A simple table would have sufficed for duplicates. That would have created more room for "unique" weapons (e.g. L85) in that section of the rulebook. For example, instead of another card for the AT-4 under Swedish weapons, they could have included the BILL ATGM. Also, I'm really disappointed that the LAV-25 wasn't included as a vehicle card, especially given that one of the campaign settings (Sweden) prominently features a USMC unit. I mentioned this in feedback on the Alpha, but whatevs (at least they fixed the illustration for the PKM, which was originally portrayed as an RPK).

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[Heffe]

As for MGs - not looking at ROF specifically, but MGs in 4e are pretty weak using RAW. "More ammo" is essentially the one advantage they have, which has always felt wrong to me. I've played with house ruling it in a variety of ways (starting with reducing the default penalties for shooting them from -2/-3 to -1/-2, giving extra suppression dice chances, etc)

Can you expound on which penalty/modifier you're referring to So far as I'm aware, mgs are handled just like any other ranged combat weapon with the exception of which dice are being rolled.

[Spartan-117]

More ammo is probably more powerful than people realize, given that this is an action economy combat system and you will spend a fast or slow action to reload a magazine fed weapon (depending on your RC reload roll).

Screwing around with a magazine in your hand is time you could have been killing Soviets!

You spend an action to reload a belt fed weapon also, but you do so a third to a quarter as much. That means MOAR dead Soviets! HUZZAH!

[Raellus]

More ammo is probably more powerful than people realize, given that this is an action economy combat system and you will spend a fast or slow action to reload a magazine fed weapon (depending on your RC reload roll).

I keep forgetting about action economy. I don't know if that's because I've only ever used v2.2 combat rules, or exclusively run/played PbP (maybe it's both). Action economy + slightly higher damage per shot probably makes up for a slower ROF.

I reckon the M249 would probably be the min-maxer's small arm of choice then, being as it's got ROF 6 and ammo 200.

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[Spartan-117]

I reckon the M249 would probably be the min-maxer's small arm of choice then, being as it's got ROF 6 and ammo 200.

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It's a jam cannon at ROF 6.

[Raellus]

Jams Rule, uh, Jam Rules

It's a jam cannon at ROF 6.

Can a weapon jam if the shooter didn't push the roll The only jamming rule I can find reads:

"If you roll two or more * on your base dice or ammo dice after pushing, your weapon jams immediately after resolving the attack..." p66

Checking index...

PDF says Jamming 65, but it's not actually mentioned until p66 and then all it says is what's quoted above. So, if I'm not missing anything, and I'm reading the rule correctly, it looks like jams only occur on pushed rolls.

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[Spartan-117]

Can a weapon jam if the shooter didn't push the roll The only jamming rule I can find reads:

"If you roll two or more * on your base dice or ammo dice after pushing, your weapon jams immediately after resolving the attack..." p66

Checking index...

PDF says Jamming 65, but it's not actually mentioned until p66 and then all it says is what's quoted above. So, if I'm not missing anything, and I'm reading the rule correctly, it looks like jams only occur on pushed rolls.

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Then it's even worse.. it's a miss cannon...

Being able to push is what allows you to hit effectively in many cases. The negative modifiers stack up quickly. Not being able to push because you rolled 6 die and got 2 1's on some of them, is really limiting.

IMHO, ROF 2 or 3 is the sweet spot. At ROF 5 and 6 you are taking real risk of getting a pair of ones. Not that it can't happen with ROF 2/3, but it's less likely to happen. Throw more die, you have more chances for 6 - yes, but an equal amount of chances for 1s.

A min-maxer's dream, from my perspective, is a weapon that you can reliably push to achieve a hit, and if it hits it crits immediately, no need for an extra success or ammo die (those are gravy).

Suppressing the enemy is good. Killing them is better.

*You can debate wounding them might be best - if the OPFOR will reliable react to treat a wounded soldier, tying up action economy for the medic/combat lifesaver (who was otherwise a combatant), that's a pretty good outcome as well.*

[unipus]

Can you expound on which penalty/modifier you're referring to So far as I'm aware, mgs are handled just like any other ranged combat weapon with the exception of which dice are being rolled.

Yeah, it's on p.65 of the PM:

LIGHT (LMG): Normally fired from a bipod. Can be fired when carried, but with a –2 modifier."

GENERAL PURPOSE (GPMG): Normally fired from a bipod, tripod or vehicle mount. Can be fired when carried, with a –3 modifier.

HEAVY (HMG): Can only be fired from a tripod or a vehicle mount.



Like I said, I think those penalties are a little severe so I dropped them to -1/-2 for LMG/MMG.

[unipus]

And yes, agreed, pushing rolls is very important to success in general, and the main advantage PCs have over NPCs. You can still push a roll even if you're already showing multiple mishaps, though! I had one player do it in a do-or-die situation and it worked out for him. Jammed, almost broken weapon was a far better alternative than the faceful of bullets he seemed all but guaranteed to receive otherwise.

I do agree that in most circumstances, around 3 seems to be the sweet spot for ROF, except those rare instances where there's a stack of enemies bunched together or you just absolutely need to hose a MF'er right now. Otherwise you end up mostly using a lot more ammo and facing a lot more jams for not huge gain. Every now and then, though, you end up with critical hits against multiple enemies in a single shot. That's pretty ninja.

But, again, all this kinda gets to flaws in the presentation of MGs as I see it. It's not that they can't be effective. It's more that they mostly don't seem to bring a lot of their real-world advantages. IRL the MG is the most important part of the squad. In 4E (which I generally think produces slightly abstract but overall very plausible combat results!) it's a second-rate tool, unless you happen to have lots and lots and lots of ammo.

[Heffe]

Can a weapon jam if the shooter didn't push the roll The only jamming rule I can find reads:

"If you roll two or more * on your base dice or ammo dice after pushing, your weapon jams immediately after resolving the attack..." p66

Checking index...

PDF says Jamming 65, but it's not actually mentioned until p66 and then all it says is what's quoted above. So, if I'm not missing anything, and I'm reading the rule correctly, it looks like jams only occur on pushed rolls.

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Just confirming that this was my read of that rule as well. Its only jamming if youre pushing.

[Heffe]

Yeah, it's on p.65 of the PM:

LIGHT (LMG): Normally fired from a bipod. Can be fired when carried, but with a 2 modifier."

GENERAL PURPOSE (GPMG): Normally fired from a bipod, tripod or vehicle mount. Can be fired when carried, with a 3 modifier.

HEAVY (HMG): Can only be fired from a tripod or a vehicle mount.



Like I said, I think those penalties are a little severe so I dropped them to -1/-2 for LMG/MMG.

Ahhh interesting. Yeah that seems like a good way to go with houseruling in that case.

[Tegyrius]

But, again, all this kinda gets to flaws in the presentation of MGs as I see it. It's not that they can't be effective. It's more that they mostly don't seem to bring a lot of their real-world advantages. IRL the MG is the most important part of the squad. In 4E (which I generally think produces slightly abstract but overall very plausible combat results!) it's a second-rate tool, unless you happen to have lots and lots and lots of ammo.

I haven't examined this issue in detail yet but it seems like the easy fix is to give MGs a limited ability to ignore 1s on ammo dice - possibly ignore the first X 1s, where X equals half of current Reliability, rounded up (so at Reliability 5, you'd have to roll four 1s to affect Reliability and five 1s to jam - not counting any 1s on your base attack dice). This would reflect their designed capability for reliable sustained automatic fire in a better way than just pointing to the action economy advantage of belt feed.

They still have the disadvantages of encumbrance, reduced performance when hip-fired, and high consumption of your most precious natural resource (i.e., lead).

- C.