4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[Raellus]

Critical Injuries

I want to check my understanding of the Critical Injury rules (which are as follows).

CRITICAL INJURY: If the damage inflicted, after mitigation
by armor and cover, is equal to or higher than the crit
threshold of your weapon, you also inflict a critical injury
on the target.

Some weapons' Dam and Crit numbers are the same, so conceivably a single hit could generate a Critical Injury. However, most weapons' Crit number is higher than its Dam number (usually by one).

My question: For weapons in the latter category, is using ammo die the only way to generate a Critical Injury

OR

Could Critical Injuries be generated from a scenario like the one that follows: In round 1, the player hits a target in the right arm for 2 damage (the player's weapon's Crit value is 3). In the next round, the player hits the target in the same arm for another 2 damage. Since the total damage to that body part is now 4, over the weapon's Crit score, is a Critical Injury generated

Similarly, what if the player hits a different body part in the second round, still causes 2 points of damage. Now that the total damage to the target is 4, over the weapon's Crit score, is a Critical Injury generated

In other words, does only the damage from a single shot or burst count towards generating a Critical Injury Or, does cumulative damage do so as well (And, if so, is it cumulative to a single body part, or cumulative for the target's entire body)

Thanks, in advance.

-

[Ursus Maior]

Option 2 is definitely not an intended reading and frankly, I don't see how this could be read into it. This would immediately generate additional edge cases for rules interpretation that would make it absurd to play by these rules.

However, I'm not sure, how to read your first option and I think there are several misunderstandings at place here.

Some weapons' Dam and Crit numbers are the same, so conceivably a single hit could generate a Critical Injury. However, most weapons' Crit number is lower than its Dam number (usually by one).

My question: For weapons in the latter category, is using ammo die the only way to generate a Critical Injury

First of all, for most weapons the Crit value is on point higher than the Damage value. Weapons which have both ratings at the same level are exceedingly rare and these weapons are obviously meant to inflict critical hits against unarmored targets very easily (e. g. axe, grenade launcher, heavy machinegun). Heavier weapons and especially weapons under the "Artillery" category (i. e. 20 mm and upwards) usually have their Crit value above the Damage value, basically guaranteeing a critical hit, probably even against personnel in body armor or behind cover.

Now, I'm assuming you mixed up "lower" Crit number and "higher" Crit value in your initial statement, but ammo dice are by no means the only way to generate critical hits. Remember, you can generate up to 4 successes total without ammo dice, if your attribute and or skill level give you D10s and/or D12s.

Any additional success in the to-hit roll gives you +1 damage (p. 63, right above the paragraph on critical hits). So a regular soldier with Agility C and Ranged Combat C would roll 2D8 and could come up with 2 successes, enough to trigger a critical hit with his rifle against an unarmored target not in cover. A better trained professional soldier (Agility B, Ranged Combat B) could hope for a critical hit much more often, however, maybe even against armored targets or those behind cover.

Now, if opponents crouch themselves behind cover and are armor clad, then you might want to take aim with a good optic (+1) probably also seeking good support for your rifle (combined +2) or just let loose more rounds (1-6 ammo dice). Note, however, that successes on ammo dice also allow you to hit other targets, not just enhance damage on the initial target (p. 66).

[Raellus]

Now, I'm assuming you mixed up "lower" Crit number and "higher" Crit value in your initial statement.

Indeed, I did.

Corrected in OP.

Any additional success in the to-hit roll gives you +1 damage (p. 63, right above the paragraph on critical hits). So a regular soldier with Agility C and Ranged Combat C would roll 2D8 and could come up with 2 successes, enough to trigger a critical hit with his rifle against an unarmored target not in cover. A better trained professional soldier (Agility B, Ranged Combat B) could hope for a critical hit much more often, however, maybe even against armored targets or those behind cover.

I had not caught that. Thanks.

-

[Spartan-117]

One questions I've had regarding rule and mechanics:

Since Battle Rifle is not specifically mentioned under the Rifleman speciality, would you allow Rifleman to grant the +1 to hit with Battle Rifles

Without allowing it, you end up with the odd case that Hemv$rnet members carrying AK4s who rolled/selected the Rifleman speciality, actually become more skilled at shooting people if they pickup a dropped Soviet AK-47/74... which seems weird and perhaps unintended.

[Tegyrius]

One questions I've had regarding rule and mechanics:

Since Battle Rifle is not specifically mentioned under the Rifleman speciality, would you allow Rifleman to grant the +1 to hit with Battle Rifles

I would hope that's the intent. As written, the specialty seems to include all shoulder-fired small arms that don't fall under another specialty... and it explicitly includes shotguns, which are sometimes rifled but not rifles by most sane hoplological taxonomy.

- C.

[Ursus Maior]

I concur with Tegyrius. I think not adding the apparently existing category of Battle Rilfes to the list of the Rifleman specialty (p. 50) is either an oversight in copy-editing or during finalization of the rules between alpha, beta and publication edition.

After checking the wording of alpha and beta rules, I realized that nothing had changed there during editing. So, I suppose it's a continuous error and adding the category of Battle Rifles was just forgotten. It just doesn't make sense for those rifles not to have a specialty that gives them +1. All other weapons get that opportunity.

Thus I'd read "Rifleman" to encompass all 'longarms', except hunting and sniper rifles. These use "Sniper".

[Raellus]

Dealing Damage with Ranged Attacks

"Rifleman" and "Battle Rifle" both contain the same root word (rifle!), so I would rule yes.

I still haven't had a chance to play 4e, but I'm trying to get a grip on the rules in the hopes that, someday, I will. My next question is a follow-up on my earlier Crit question.

DAMAGE: If your attack succeeds, you hit your target and
inflict your weapons base damage rating on them. Each
extra [target icon] rolled will increase the damage by 1. Roll for a
random hit location and apply the effects of armor.

So, as I understand it, you roll two die per ranged attack, one for the PC's attribute, the other for their applied skill.

For the sake of example, and assuming no modifiers come into play, let's say the player/Ref rolls a six (one target icon) and a ten (two target icons). Since they rolled a six, they hit. Since there're TWO target icons on the other die, does that mean you add +2 to the damage

-

[unipus]

Correct. (unless they don't have the skill at all, in which case you only roll one die -- or if modifiers cause a die to be eliminated)

If they had rolled a miss on the first die, and a 10 on the second, that would still be two hits. The majority of small arms in the game have a crit rating one higher than their base damage, which makes either of these cases a critical hit. This is the main advantage that highly skilled shooters have - not only do they hit more often, but it tends to be more lethal when they do so.

This is also why ammo dice are so useful, despite a lot of people underestimating their usefulness in the system. The odds are only 16% per die, but when you're in a firefight against multiple opponents, being able to hit more than one at once, or just put one down with a critical right now, becomes super important -- not to mention the significant importance of suppression. A ROF 3 shot has a 42% chance of achieving that!

[Ursus Maior]

Unipus is right, the mechanic of ammo dice is extremely important. Also, I like the way they reflect the dynamics of a firefight, where soldiers try to shoot short bursts, but over the course of 10 seconds (1 combat round) might give off 5-10 bursts.

To me, using 3 ammo dice seems to be the optimum, adding three seperate chances of ~16.67 % to hit at least one additional target. The base damage will often be not the most important part, but you will confer 2 CUF rolls onto the enemy force. That results in two chances of morale failure, hence twice the chance to route the enemy in your turn.

Proper target allocation and concentration of fire is a critical point in this game. Whoever controls morale will be able to move more freely and go into close combat, where less penalties apply and targets loose cover and concealment to a flanking force.

That's exactly how firefights work, if current tactics are applied properly.

[unipus]

Yep. At a glance the system is a bit abstracted but in practice I saw immediately that it generates very believable results that emphasize fire and maneuver tactics. Whoever has fire superiority will generally maintain the initiative (in the true military sense -- I hate the way this word is traditionally used in the roleplaying game sense!) and the freedom to move, act, and win. Depending on how scarce ammo is, this leads to tough decisions about how much to shoot, which is good!

To me, using 3 ammo dice seems to be the optimum, adding three seperate chances of ~16.67 % to hit at least one additional target. The base damage will often be not the most important part, but you will confer 2 CUF rolls onto the enemy force. That results in two chances of morale failure, hence twice the chance to route the enemy in your turn.

I'm not sure if this is how you meant it, but I don't think you can ever force more than one CUF check on a target in a single attack (even if you choose to hit them multiple times). I think what you meant though is that you can use hits on ammo dice to split your hits among multiple targets in the same hex... in which case yes each target hit would face a CUF and potentially cause a cascade if they fail.

[Ursus Maior]

In reverse order for the sake of arguments.

I'm not sure if this is how you meant it, but I don't think you can ever force more than one CUF check on a target in a single attack (even if you choose to hit them multiple times). I think what you meant though is that you can use hits on ammo dice to split your hits among multiple targets in the same hex... in which case yes each target hit would face a CUF and potentially cause a cascade if they fail.

Yes, one can only trigger one CUF per person per attack. But a hex is a big place and it's feasible to anticipate that more persons (to use the somewhat awkward term of the rules) of one side occupy the same hex than suffered a CUF roll. Or as the rules put it:

PANIC SPREADS: If you fail a CUF roll and get suppressed, all friendly fighters in the same hex as you must also immediately make CUF rolls to avoid suppression too. However, a single attack can only trigger one CUF roll for the same person, never several rolls. [PM p. 67]

[...] Whoever has fire superiority will generally maintain the initiative (in the true military sense -- I hate the way this word is traditionally used in the roleplaying game sense!) and the freedom to move, act, and win. Depending on how scarce ammo is, this leads to tough decisions about how much to shoot, which is good!

D'accord to all three items: the intention of the rule, the critique on terminology and the consequences of the rules. Conflict should and indeed must generate decisions for role-playing games to work. And fighting conflicts should generate the starkest decisions to be made. It's quite literally about live and death for characters, son the consequences should carry on into the world after the action.

[Raellus]

Opposed Rolls & Outstanding Success

So, with opposed skill checks and whatnot, is it essentially whoever has the most target icons showing on their dice wins

Is there also some sort of outstanding success or failure mechanic if X more targets are showing than on the opponents' dice I seem to recall seeing something about an outstanding success mechanic somewhere in the 4e rules but, of course, now I can't find it.

-

[Ursus Maior]

There aren't any rules for triumphant successes or abysmal failures in T2K4. You have the push mechanic, for bending your luck at the (possible) cost of damaging gear or taking stress or (physical) strain yourself, but beyond that, it's either pass or fail.

[unipus]

Personally, I still always interpret it otherwise. For many tasks, 4 successes paints a much different picture than 1 and I narrate it that way. For other tasks, I sometimes make it clear before the role what the stakes are, ie "One success here and you'll get him to walk away... but you're gonna need more than that to really convince him of anything" or "any successes and you'll climb the wall -- more than that and you get it done quickly and quietly" and so on.

[Raellus]

Sort Of

There aren't any rules for triumphant successes or abysmal failures in T2K4. You have the push mechanic, for bending your luck at the (possible) cost of damaging gear or taking stress or (physical) strain yourself, but beyond that, it's either pass or fail.

I found the bit that I referred to in the OP. It's not an outstanding success mechanic, per se, but it's close. It apparently only applies in certain situations, though, so not for opposed rolls, in general. Off the top of my head, I can't remember a situation where it does apply so, if you know of one, please share.

MULTIPLE SUCCESSES: A roll of 10 or higher on a single die
(only possible with a D10 or D12 of course) counts as
two successes. This means you can potentially roll up to
four successes with a single skill roll (two successes on
each die), if you are both skilled and lucky. With bonus
beyond the first one you can achieve additional effects, if explicitly stated in the rules.

-