Grappling and melee

[Bullet Magnet]

Hmm. I'm well familiar with 1st ed, it's the others I was hazy on. 9mm not being able to kill average PCs with a headshot = poxy system. NPCs being innately easier to kill than PCs = poxy system. IMHO.

No game system is perfect, in my opinion.
Also, a 9mm could kill an average person in 1st edition, at least at closer ranges.
Head HP = CON score; average character would have a 10
9mmP damage = Base 1; plus 1d6 (at extreme range)
At close range, this figure is multiplies by four. So, at close range, a 9mm would inflict 4 + (4d6); the average damage for this ends up at 18 points. So, it is possible.

As for NPCs being easier to kill, yeah you got a point there. I always thought that seemed a bit too hollywood.

[Legbreaker]

V1 damage was pretty nasty, almost as nasty (and realistic) as the healing times. Get wounded beyond slight in V1 and you might as well roll up a new PC - the wait on healing could be months!

[Badbru]

You're right! That's one of the reasons, why I'm not happy with the melee damages. The majority of PCs and detailed NPCs did not spent points to increase "Unarmed Melee". So the most PCs do a damage of "1". That's a bit weak. Maybe something like 1d6 / 2 or 1d3 damage, reducing the "Unarmed Combat Damage" and apply as a bonus
I mean, an experienced martial artist can (under certain circumstances) break an opponents arm!

How do you handle this, Leg (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

I don't mess with the damage system. Once you change one part of it, melee, bullets, you then need to change explosions etc etc...

Just reduce hit points.

Instead of head being Con x2 I have it as just Con.
Instead of chest being Str + Con x3 I have it as just x2
Instead of all other areas being Str + Con x2, just Str + Con.

Everything just becomes a little more lethal, including poisions and infections, diseases... etc etc.
Simple.

And, maybe I got it wrong back in the day but I allways played melee as being +1d6. The melee damage is points, not dice, so the +1d6 was the randomiser. Maybe I have it wrong but that allways worked ok for us.

[Legbreaker]

As I was sort of indicating before, melee combat is rarely used in my games as there's far better methods of dealing with the enemy. If silence is required, crossbows, hunting bows, silencers and the like all have their place. If it's absolutely NECESSARY to lay actual hands on an enemy to ensure their silence, the fight is already lost unless absolute surprise is gained. In that case the damage is probably irrelevant and the result should be up to a straight skill roll and GM judgement.

[Targan]

Really I find that incredibly sad. A hard fought, close in melee or martial arts fight can be a highpoint of any T2K session. The more realistic the rules for that, the better. Again, IMHO.

[Legbreaker]

Why take a knife to a gun fight For that matter, why go unarmed at all
Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast with the biggest, nastiest weapon you can lay your hands on I say. There's nothing great about a fair fight when your life is on the line.
The best result is red mist.

[Targan]

I'm not suggesting that you go in unarmed. There have been many times that I can think of in games I've run where people have got into melee and martial arts fights while armed with firearms. Face to face negotiations during a trade could go horribly wrong, for instance. And in one mini-campaign I ran in which the PCs were French Foreign Legionnaires on a mission near the Iran-Iraq border the game culminated in a vicious fight among the thorn bushes with a bunch of Spetznaz, a couple of the PCs got down to one magazine left each and then fixed bayonets and charged in to meet their ends in ways befitting of real men

[Legbreaker]

I'm all for going medieval on their arses when it's needed. Nothing like the fear of a bit of cold steal up 'em to sort the men from the boys!

That's another issue again though. How to adequately model the fear somebody swinging a big chunk of sharp metal at close range will instil on the intended recipient. I know from experience that even in an exercise it tends to make grown men go white and think twice about holding their ground when it's forcefully presented.

[leonpoi]

An option could be porting over a melee system from a melee-oriented game that has similar dice d20 or say d100 brought back to d20. The most obvious choice for me would be flashing blades because it's d20 with roughly similar hit chances. Grapple isn't crash hot but otherwise the combat is an improvement over tw2k with only a little bit of work. It takes into account weapon length and I think it would end up as a pretty good melee mini game sub for the base rules (which are massively deficient and flawed).

[weswood]

My first T2K game waaayyyy back in '86, my character started out as a POW of the Russians in Alaska, where the rest of the PCs were operating. My character, a helicopter pilot with some mad skills in unarmed combat was being escorted by a single guard when the main PCs attack the facility. My character kicked the guard, one hell of a good roll, broke the guard's neck in a single kick. He got the handcuff keys off the guard and uncuffed himself, and armed with the guard's AK surprise attacked the Russians.

[James Langham]

@ James:
I think, this is an interesting way to go. Maybe I'll try this in my group.

The thing, that I think is really not that good in the T2k rules (I'm playing Ver2.2!), is the damage. I think, the damage should be increased, but I'm uncertain. Maybe:
Every punch, etc makes 1d6 damage, the "Unarmed Combat Damage" is a bonus. I'm to lazy, to go for my rules right now, but IIRC, the damage of a punch or a kick (Not a leaping kick!) is the same. If that's true, the damage of a kick should be higher than the damage of a punch.

Hm ...

Please try it and let me know. If it works I'll write it up as an article. Kicks are harder to do than a punch so maybe -1 skill but +1 effective skill for figuring the damage Depends how much detail you want.

Maybe we should also figure the armed melee combat into a similar system.
Thoughts from everyone before I start work

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Honestly, kicks are more of a range modifier to me, not a damage difference.

Shadowrun had a pretty good reach system for melee. If your melee implement (including kicks) had a longer effective range than your opponent's, you could leverage that standoff distance as an offensive or defensive modifier.

If you combine some kind of system like that with a constriction factor, I think you would have a really solid basis for the basic striking system. A sword is great in the middle of a field, but if you're in a narrow hallway, a knife will probably be more practical.

Start there, then you can potentially start adding to the grappling system.

[leonpoi]

My first T2K game waaayyyy back in '86, my character started out as a POW of the Russians in Alaska, where the rest of the PCs were operating. My character, a helicopter pilot with some mad skills in unarmed combat was being escorted by a single guard when the main PCs attack the facility. My character kicked the guard, one hell of a good roll, broke the guard's neck in a single kick. He got the handcuff keys off the guard and uncuffed himself, and armed with the guard's AK surprise attacked the Russians.

In 2.2 that couldn't happen; kicks hit on location as d6+4, so can't hit location 1 the head.

[James Langham]

In 2.2 that couldn't happen; kicks hit on location as d6+4, so can't hit location 1 the head.

When I write up I will probably introduce a system that varies the hit location die by skill level. Quick thought (probably to be changed later):

Skill level 1-4: kick 1D6+4, punch 1D6
Skill level 5-8: kick 1D10 punch 1D10
SKill level 9+ any choose either 1D6+4 or 1D10 or 1D6

[B.T.]

When I write up I will probably introduce a system that varies the hit location die by skill level. Quick thought (probably to be changed later):

Skill level 1-4: kick 1D6+4, punch 1D6
Skill level 5-8: kick 1D10 punch 1D10
SKill level 9+ any choose either 1D6+4 or 1D10 or 1D6

It definately makes sense to me, to increase the damage, if the skill is higher.
My first RPG was "Midgard", a German (Fantasy!) RPG, that was never translated into English. The damage for an unarmed melee attack was something like 1d6 - 4. In comparison: A dagger has a damage of 1d6 - 1.
Depending on strength and agility, (N)PCs can have a bonus (from +1 to +4) to the damage. This bonus is added to all handheld weapons (and unarmed melee), not to ranged weapons (crossbows, slings, bows, etc.!).
If a character increases his skill in unarmed meleee, his damage gets higher. IIRC, the highest damage would be 1d6 - 2 (+ bonus, if the character is strong/agile enough.)

I think, basing the actual damage of an attack with naked fists on the skill level makes sense!