Initiative in 4E

[Raellus]

Been thinking a bit about Initiative. Automatically giving the PCs higher initiative than the OPFOR kind of stacks the deck in favor of the good guys. Ref'ing 2.2, I was always a little loosey-goosey with the initiative order, almost always allowing the PCs to act first every round. With 4e's suppression rules, I think that might be game-breaking.

I agree with many of you that an initiative system should take into consideration characters' (both PCs and NPCs) competence, experience, tactical understanding, etc. Some people are just more decisive and quicker thinking than others, especially under pressure.

I don't have a lot of experience with other systems, but I'm familiar with how D&D 5e handles initiative, and I think something similar could work for 4e T2k. Please note, I have not field tested this system yet.

CUF scores are assigned a modifier which can be applied when drawing initiative (players have the option of not applying the modifier). PCs and NPCs draw initiative cards, as per the the rules, but PCs modify their roles up or down based on their respective CUF scores, as follows:

A = -2
B = -1
C = 0
D = +1

So, for example, Zeke, with CUF score B, draws the #5 initiative card. His initiative is now 4, if he so chooses. Rawlins, with a CUF score of A, draws an 8. His initiative is 6.

IIRC, most combat builds (among the archetypes, at least), start the game with CUF C. Most non-elite enemy NPCs also have CUF C. What I think this means is, early in the campaign, the odds re initiative will probably be close to even in most combat encounters. But if the PCs play smart and survive their first few firefights, they'll start to gain an edge.

Thoughts

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[unipus]

All of that is part of why I really don't give much of a damn about initiative, beyond what the narrative sets up. It starts to get very fiddly.

Initiative in the first turn matters very much. After that, it certainly matters, but not as much as the ongoing effects of suppression. If you're able to take out or suppress a few guys in the first and second turns then initiative becomes a very secondary concern after that.

FWIW, other FL rulesets, such as Coriolis, do have an initiative system where you get bonuses for using smaller weapons, which makes a lot of sense. It's also not my favorite system but I'm not sure why they outright abandoned it here.

[Tegyrius]

I've been chewing on this and my inclination is to do away with the card system entirely and adapt the system from Five Parsecs From Home (which, admittedly, is one of my shiny new toys, and thus biases me more favorably toward it). Here's an untested alpha draft:

Each combat round has three initiative phases. In order, these are Quick, Enemy, and Slow.

At the beginning of every combat round, each PC and allied NPC makes a Coolness Under Fire check (adding unit morale if within LOS or voice/radio contact of an ally). This check receives a -1 penalty if facing enemies who predominantly have CUF A and a +1 bonus if facing enemies who predominantly have CUF D. The Combat Awareness specialty's effect becomes a +1 bonus to initiative.

1. Quick phase: every PC/ally who succeeded with the CUF check
   
2. Enemy phase: every opponent
   
3. Slow phase: every PC/ally who failed the CUF check

In each phase, characters may act in any order.

- C.

[Ursus Maior]

If you meddle with initiative slot allocation, you will end up with (N)PCs occupying the same slot. How do you deal with that Do they act at the same time or do they act in a separate order and if so, how is that determined

I agree with the sentiment, that turn order after the first turn is largely unimportant. And if you want to make sure or more likely, you go before your enemy (especially in the first turn), then 4E gives you three options for that: Invest in Combat Awareness and draw two cards, invest in Recon to ambush your enemy or find someone who draws a lower card than you and switch turn order with them.

I think that leaves a lot of choices for skill & competence as well as small unit tactics.

[leonpoi]

Perhaps for initiative, simply roll your CUF dice and act on the value. That way higher CUF can roll higher but doesnt always guarantee going first.

[Tegyrius]

If you meddle with initiative slot allocation, you will end up with (N)PCs occupying the same slot. How do you deal with that Do they act at the same time or do they act in a separate order and if so, how is that determined

When I've run other initiative systems that have slotted sides/teams/squads rather than individuals, I've never had an issue with my players deciding who goes in which order. It usually helps them smoothly handle coordinated actions, especially when order of operations matters in tasks like like breach/bang/clear. On the ref's side of the screen, the same applies: NPCs act in whatever order is logical for their assumed degree of competence.

- C.

[swaghauler]

Perhaps for initiative, simply roll your CUF dice and act on the value. That way higher CUF can roll higher but doesnt always guarantee going first.

That's how I'd do it.

[swaghauler]

When I've run other initiative systems that have slotted sides/teams/squads rather than individuals, I've never had an issue with my players deciding who goes in which order. It usually helps them smoothly handle coordinated actions, especially when order of operations matters in tasks like like breach/bang/clear. On the ref's side of the screen, the same applies: NPCs act in whatever order is logical for their assumed degree of competence.

- C.

If more than one person goes on the same number (or on the same Initiative Step/Phase in V2.2), I have everyone perform their action and declare the actions are simultaneous. I have had two opponents take each other out of the fight with this rule.

[Tegyrius]

If more than one person goes on the same number (or on the same Initiative Step/Phase in V2.2), I have everyone perform their action and declare the actions are simultaneous. I have had two opponents take each other out of the fight with this rule.

Cinematic as hell. I can dig it.

- C.

[unipus]

Sounds fun -- although I imagine you're going to be seeing a lot of "zero successes." Of course there's also mishaps... cancel successes 1:1 and any excess dumps you to the bottom

[swaghauler]

Sounds fun -- although I imagine you're going to be seeing a lot of "zero successes." Of course there's also mishaps... cancel successes 1:1 and any excess dumps you to the bottom

If I run CUF for Initiative, you just roll the die and that's your starting number. I like the fact that it takes into account the combatant's experience (by the die size) but still allows a less experienced combatant to get a higher result than the pros (based on rolls). I would still keep any penalties from wounds, surprise, etc...

[unipus]

Ah the actual die facings. I see. You'd get pretty huge variance, but that could be fun. And you can use the normal game modifiers still.

I don't personally like rolling for initiative each turn, in any game, but I can see how some exceptions for that might be possible. One that I particularly like (but would need to flesh out) would mean re-rolling only when something major happens (reinforcements arrive, somebody dies, etc).

[Raellus]

Perhaps for initiative, simply roll your CUF dice and act on the value. That way higher CUF can roll higher but doesnt always guarantee going first.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't players most likely be hoping for a lower initiative number (i.e. 1 goes before 10, so a higher roll is a later turn slot)

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[swaghauler]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't players most likely be hoping for a lower initiative number (i.e. 1 goes before 10, so a higher roll is a later turn slot)

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I'll have to be brief because I am waiting to offload but I would say No. Why

Under my proposal, you start out high and count down to 1. This is due to the fact that those participants with a higher CUF would roll a bigger die size. This gives them more chances to roll a higher number than those participants rolling a smaller die size... but yet still allows the smaller die user to occasionally out roll the bigger die user and go first. It also allows the GM to impose existing game penalties which REDUCE the die size on the Initiative roll. So you wind up with a situation where the lower die CAN win but it is less likely than the guy with the larger CUF die (representing his greater experience or speed of engagement). So it makes more sense to roll high and count down.

[Tegyrius]

I really am enjoying the discussion here, but could a mod split the alternate initiative systems material into its own thread It feels like the oeall things 4e topic may need to branch a bit.

- C.