Initiative in 4E

[leonpoi]

Initiative in 4E

Yes. Start High and count down was my thinking also

[Rainbow Six]

I really am enjoying the discussion here, but could a mod split the alternate initiative systems material into its own thread It feels like the oeall things 4e topic may need to branch a bit.

- C.

Split as requested.

[Mahatatain]

Im considering the following homebrew V4 Initiative system and Im keen to get peoples thoughts. Please note that this is a first draft so please be kind:

• At the start of the first round everyone rolls their personal CUF die and then modifies the result to generate an initiative score.
• The only modifier applied in round 1 is whether they are carrying their backpack or not. If they are carrying their backpack then no modifier is applied. If they arent carrying their backpack then a +2 modifier is applied.
• The GM then counts down from the highest number, resolving actions until the first round is completed. Ties happen simultaneously.
• At the end of the first round (and of every subsequent round) every participant declares whether they are Pressing or Holding. If everyone Holds then a Pause in the combat occurs and PCs and NPCs can perform non-combat actions unless a combat starts again.
• If one participant in the combat declares Press then everyone rolls initiative as above but anyone who declared that they were Pressing applies a modifier of +4. Participants who declared Hold do not apply a modifier.
• The GM then counts down from the highest number, taking actions until the first round is completed.
• NPCs can be grouped together under a single roll for ease of tracking.

For example, Alex (CUF B and wearing a backpack) and Ben (CUF C and wearing a backpack) encounter two enemy soldiers on patrol (both CUF C and not wearing backpacks). Everyone rolls their CUF for round 1:

• Alex rolls a 4 and applies no modifier for a total of 4.
• Ben rolls a 5 and applies no modifier for a total of 5.
• Enemy solider #1 rolls a 6 and applies a modifier of +2 (as he isnt wearing a backpack) for a total of 8.
• Enemy soldier #2 rolls an 8 and applies a modifier of +2 (as he also isnt wearing a backpack) for a total of 10.
• The round is resolved in the order Enemy soldier #2 (10), Enemy soldier #1 (8), Ben (5) and lastly Alex (4).

For ease lets presume that no one was hit by any fire or was suppressed in round 1 and that Alex and Ben dropped their backpacks during the round.

We now have the declaration phase at the end of round 1. Lets presume that that Enemy soldier #1 decided to Hold for some reason while the others all decided to Press. The combat continues for another round and the initiative rolls for round 2 would be made. Lets presume that they are as follows:

• Alex rolls a 9 and applies a +2 modifier as he now isnt wearing a backpack and a +4 modifier as he Pressed for a total of 15
• Ben rolls a 6 and applies a +2 modifier as he now isnt wearing a backpack and a +4 modifier as he Pressed for a total of 12
• Enemy soldier #1 rolls an 8 and applies a +2 modifier as he isnt wearing a backpack for a total of 10
• Enemy soldier #2 rolls a 7 and a +2 modifier as he isnt wearing a backpack and a +4 modifier as he Pressed for a total of 13
• The round is resolved in the order Alex (15), Enemy soldier #2 (13), Ben (12), Enemy soldier #1 (10).

How does that sound as an initiative system Constructive criticism please.

From my perspective, the major negative with this homebrew system is that it involves rolling initiative every round but as it includes the Press/Hold mechanic from the V3 rules, which seems to create an interesting flow in an engagement, I think that it might be worth the extra dice rolling.

I'm also not sure how the V4 rule that allows you to swap initiative with another PC you are in communication with would work with this homebrew system.

[swaghauler]

Im considering the following homebrew V4 Initiative system and Im keen to get peoples thoughts. Please note that this is a first draft so please be kind:

• At the start of the first round everyone rolls their personal CUF die and then modifies the result to generate an initiative score.
• The only modifier applied in round 1 is whether they are carrying their backpack or not. If they are carrying their backpack then no modifier is applied. If they arent carrying their backpack then a +2 modifier is applied.
• The GM then counts down from the highest number, resolving actions until the first round is completed. Ties happen simultaneously.
• At the end of the first round (and of every subsequent round) every participant declares whether they are Pressing or Holding. If everyone Holds then a Pause in the combat occurs and PCs and NPCs can perform non-combat actions unless a combat starts again.
• If one participant in the combat declares Press then everyone rolls initiative as above but anyone who declared that they were Pressing applies a modifier of +4. Participants who declared Hold do not apply a modifier.
• The GM then counts down from the highest number, taking actions until the first round is completed.
• NPCs can be grouped together under a single roll for ease of tracking.

For example, Alex (CUF B and wearing a backpack) and Ben (CUF C and wearing a backpack) encounter two enemy soldiers on patrol (both CUF C and not wearing backpacks). Everyone rolls their CUF for round 1:

• Alex rolls a 4 and applies no modifier for a total of 4.
• Ben rolls a 5 and applies no modifier for a total of 5.
• Enemy solider #1 rolls a 6 and applies a modifier of +2 (as he isnt wearing a backpack) for a total of 8.
• Enemy soldier #2 rolls an 8 and applies a modifier of +2 (as he also isnt wearing a backpack) for a total of 10.
• The round is resolved in the order Enemy soldier #2 (10), Enemy soldier #1 (8), Ben (5) and lastly Alex (4).

For ease lets presume that no one was hit by any fire or was suppressed in round 1 and that Alex and Ben dropped their backpacks during the round.

We now have the declaration phase at the end of round 1. Lets presume that that Enemy soldier #1 decided to Hold for some reason while the others all decided to Press. The combat continues for another round and the initiative rolls for round 2 would be made. Lets presume that they are as follows:

• Alex rolls a 9 and applies a +2 modifier as he now isnt wearing a backpack and a +4 modifier as he Pressed for a total of 15
• Ben rolls a 6 and applies a +2 modifier as he now isnt wearing a backpack and a +4 modifier as he Pressed for a total of 12
• Enemy soldier #1 rolls an 8 and applies a +2 modifier as he isnt wearing a backpack for a total of 10
• Enemy soldier #2 rolls a 7 and a +2 modifier as he isnt wearing a backpack and a +4 modifier as he Pressed for a total of 13
• The round is resolved in the order Alex (15), Enemy soldier #2 (13), Ben (12), Enemy soldier #1 (10).

How does that sound as an initiative system Constructive criticism please.

From my perspective, the major negative with this homebrew system is that it involves rolling initiative every round but as it includes the Press/Hold mechanic from the V3 rules, which seems to create an interesting flow in an engagement, I think that it might be worth the extra dice rolling.

I'm also not sure how the V4 rule that allows you to swap initiative with another PC you are in communication with would work with this homebrew system.

The simple solution to hold or press in your alfa build is that you do not reroll Initiative if EVERYONE chooses the same option from those two choices.

[Mahatatain]

The simple solution to hold or press in your alfa build is that you do not reroll Initiative if EVERYONE chooses the same option from those two choices.

That's an interesting idea.

If someone has dropped their pack then a modifier can just be applied to their original die roll to generate a revised total.

Thanks for this feedback. I will ponder on it further.

[unipus]

I really like this idea in general. I'd have to playtest it to see how it actually feels.

But, conceptually, it achieves two things I really like. One, the press/hold thing allows for the lulls that most real combat consists of where their guys are over there and your guys are over here and as long as you don't poke your head up too much or run around or get spotted doing something stupid probably not much is going to happen for a while. Trying to adjudicate that sort of thing while sticking to the action based system made it almost a real-time endeavor. My solution was usually just like "it looks like they're not eager to make any more moves unless you are," but this makes it a clean, fair mechanic.

The +4 modifier for pushing kinda contradicts it, though, since there's no penalty otherwise. Unless you're hit bad and just need to lay down, why is anyone incentivized to do anything other than push most of the time

The other thing I like is that it plays nicely with other stuff in the game, but in an even easier fashion. Got the Combat Senses perk (or whatever it's called, I forget) Roll all initiative checks with advantage. Ambushing Get advantage. Being ambushed Take disadvantage. (I'm not sure if I would pile on both of those modifiers on top of each other, maybe only the players' side is modified). I don't love how a successful ambush gives you automatic first action as it is RAW (among other reasons because it's a player-killer), but it should still be powerful.

The other thing I'd say is that, maybe on the first round only, I'd include unit morale. Maybe just a single unit die roll applies to everyone equally. This gives you a whole other tool to play with that can even pass forward from engagement to engagement. It's easier to beat an enemy that is beaten!

[Raellus]

It's tricky. Seems like attempts to add realism also end up adding complexity. The more steps added to the process, the slower combat goes, I imagine. One of good things about 4e rules that I keep hearing is how it speeds up combat, compared to earlier versions.

-

[unipus]

That's true... and a reason why I prefer to avoid "roll for initiative every round" and, really, limit die rolls as much as possible.

I do think there are some worthwhile tradeoffs in something like the system Mahatatain proposed. Getting rid of "dead" rounds of combat being a big one, potentially, which all by itself could compensate for any amount of speed lost to adding the initiative roll.

I play online, so initiative is automatic, which is hard to beat... but with a little work it could be automatic using something like this system, too.

[Tegyrius]

It's tricky. Seems like attempts to add realism also end up adding complexity. The more steps added to the process, the slower combat goes, I imagine. One of good things about 4e rules that I keep hearing is how it speeds up combat, compared to earlier versions.

Yes, but only if you're playing in real time. Play-by-post still takes a couple of months per combat scene.

- C.

[Raellus]

Yes, but only if you're playing in real time. Play-by-post still takes a couple of months per combat scene.

That is a fair point. As a PbP Ref, though, I definitely appreciate fewer rolls. With v2.2, a lot of times, it took longer to roll results than write the narrative descriptions of same.

About 4e's system, as-written, has anyone had a bad experience with the optional rule by which a group of enemy draw one initiative card as a collective, and all act on the same initiative turn It strikes me that using that streamlining feature could potentially give an enemy force a huge tactical advantage.

For example, imagine a 6 v 6 engagement. Let's say one of the six PCs draws the one card, and then the OPFOR draws the two. That means the bad guys get six turns before the PCs get a second one. That seems game breaking to me. Am I missing something

-

[Mahatatain]

I really like this idea in general. I'd have to playtest it to see how it actually feels.

But, conceptually, it achieves two things I really like. One, the press/hold thing allows for the lulls that most real combat consists of where their guys are over there and your guys are over here and as long as you don't poke your head up too much or run around or get spotted doing something stupid probably not much is going to happen for a while. Trying to adjudicate that sort of thing while sticking to the action based system made it almost a real-time endeavor. My solution was usually just like "it looks like they're not eager to make any more moves unless you are," but this makes it a clean, fair mechanic.

The +4 modifier for pushing kinda contradicts it, though, since there's no penalty otherwise. Unless you're hit bad and just need to lay down, why is anyone incentivized to do anything other than push most of the time

Thanks for the input.

The modifier for Pressing was included based on the idea that if you Hold you are hesitating slightly and therefore not being as aggressively in combat. Initially, I had a negative modifier to the Initiative total for those participants declaring Hold but that potentially ends up with a negative initiative total so, for easy-to-understand maths, I flipped it around and made the modifier a positive one for declaring Press.

Does the concept of someone Pressing generally acting earlier in the combat round than someone Holding make sense though What do people think

The other thing I'd say is that, maybe on the first round only, I'd include unit morale. Maybe just a single unit die roll applies to everyone equally. This gives you a whole other tool to play with that can even pass forward from engagement to engagement. It's easier to beat an enemy that is beaten!

Thats an interesting suggestion. Ill have a think about that. Thanks for this.

It's tricky. Seems like attempts to add realism also end up adding complexity. The more steps added to the process, the slower combat goes, I imagine. One of good things about 4e rules that I keep hearing is how it speeds up combat, compared to earlier versions.

Slowing down combat rounds by rolling initiative each round is certainly the main negative of this homebrew system.

This suggestion may well be a good solution to that though:

The simple solution to hold or press in your alfa build is that you do not reroll Initiative if EVERYONE chooses the same option from those two choices.

If everyone declares Hold then there is a Pause in the combat so you would only keep the latest set of initiative rolls if everyone declares Press. Its a good idea though.

Yes, but only if you're playing in real time. Play-by-post still takes a couple of months per combat scene.

Initiative tends to get ignored in PbP games in my experience as waiting for players to post in initiative order just delays the game further. This system might be slightly better for PbP games than the original rules (as it includes the Press/Hold mechanic) but I doubt it.

I think that the major issue with the 4E rules to resolve for PbP games is the Push mechanic for skill checks. Thats probably best discussed in the 4E rules thread though.

About 4e's system, as-written, has anyone had a bad experience with the optional rule by which a group of enemy draw one initiative card as a collective, and all act on the same initiative turn It strikes me that using that streamlining feature could potentially give an enemy force a huge tactical advantage.

For example, imagine a 6 v 6 engagement. Let's say one of the six PCs draws the one card, and then the OPFOR draws the two. That means the bad guys get six turns before the PCs get a second one. That seems game breaking to me. Am I missing something

I think that youve identified a potential issue with initiative system. I havent had an experience yet where the enemy get the drop on the PCs but I have had an encounter where the PCs had a surprise round and it was a slaughter. Thats probably realistic but it could potentially be a TPK very easily if the enemy either achieve complete surprise or act first as a block at the start of the combat round. Even with the 4E initiative system as written though I would break the enemy up into several groups and give them each their own initiative card to try to break things up. There are only 10 initiative cards though so the enemy can only be broken down into groups so far.

[swaghauler]

Thanks for the input.

The modifier for Pressing was included based on the idea that if you Hold you are hesitating slightly and therefore not being as aggressively in combat. Initially, I had a negative modifier to the Initiative total for those participants declaring Hold but that potentially ends up with a negative initiative total so, for easy-to-understand maths, I flipped it around and made the modifier a positive one for declaring Press.

Does the concept of someone Pressing generally acting earlier in the combat round than someone Holding make sense though What do people think

I think the holds should be LIGHTLY penalized because they are basically hesitating (for whatever reason) in the heat of the moment. I might have the people declaring "HOLD" roll initiative with a smaller die to emulate that.

[swaghauler]

I think that youve identified a potential issue with initiative system. I havent had an experience yet where the enemy get the drop on the PCs but I have had an encounter where the PCs had a surprise round and it was a slaughter. Thats probably realistic but it could potentially be a TPK very easily if the enemy either achieve complete surprise or act first as a block at the start of the combat round. Even with the 4E initiative system as written though I would break the enemy up into several groups and give them each their own initiative card to try to break things up. There are only 10 initiative cards though so the enemy can only be broken down into groups so far.

This was a BIG problem with the 6 step Initiative Phases in Twilight V2.2. The guy with the Initiative of 6 would go first and fire 5 bursts (for a 5-second round) and that was the end of the fight.

I transitioned to 6-second rounds and made each Phase basically a "mini-round." I then had everyone roll a 1D6 and add that to their Initiative then divide by 2 (rounding up). So a 7 Initiative (the highest RAW score) can begin to act from Phase 7 (high) down to Phase 4 (low). A 1 Initiative can act from Phase 4 (high) down to Phase 1 (low).

The mini-Round...

Each Phase represents 1 SECOND OF TIME, so I allow ONE ATTACK per Phase. This means that 7 Initiative shooter is going to fire SEVEN TIMES in 6 seconds, BUT he is going to fire at ONLY ONE TARGET, OR FIRE A SINGLE BURST PER PHASE. That means the 7 Initiative shooter will most likely be trading shots with slower combatants throughout the ROUND. Therefore, one must pick one's targets carefully, since ALL ACTIONS IN A SINGLE PHASE ARE SIMULTANEOUS. That means two shooters can kill each other in a single phase.

Movement is done the same way. Sprinting is 8m per Phase/Second. Running is 6m per Phase/Second. Trotting is 4m per Phase/Second, Walking is 2m per Phase/Second, and Crawling is 1m per Phase/Second.

Since Phases are 1 fixed second. Any action can be counted out in 1-second intervals and performed in that many Phases. Clear a Jam 2 1-second phases. Drawing 1 second/phase. It is easy and pretty fast to use.

[unipus]

I like phased actions like that in concept. In practice Not so much.

@Raellus -- you're not entirely wrong with your question about initiative, but your example doesn't seem to play. In this case, the PC has drawn the worst card. It doesn't matter whether the NPCs act all on the same initiative, or individually, they're all going to go before him anyway.

(personally, I recommend grouping NPCs in no more than fireteam size, and usually no more than pairs, and at the price/convenience that they all move and fight in the same hex unless numbers are whittled down so much that I decide to split them)

I think that youve identified a potential issue with initiative system. I havent had an experience yet where the enemy get the drop on the PCs but I have had an encounter where the PCs had a surprise round and it was a slaughter. Thats probably realistic but it could potentially be a TPK very easily if the enemy either achieve complete surprise or act first as a block at the start of the combat round.

I actually don't think it's all that realistic. I've been a part of exercises involving ambushes. Even a perfect ambush at close range has a lot of potential to work out sub-optimally. One snapping twig or one person opening fire a second before everyone else means that some targets will escape the kill zone or be able to react while others will not. And this is the norm, not the exception (unless you're part of Ghost Recon).

That's why I said I liked that aspect of your system, which could instead just grant advantage/disadvantage on initiative rolls. An ambusher has a much better chance of acting first, but it's not guaranteed. And a very experienced target of an ambush might have their spidey sense go off just that half second before it all goes to shit...

[unipus]

My question remains in this Press/Hold system (I'll buy a new copy of 2013! I cannot find it anywhere and I'd like to support the lads!) though...

What advantage is there ever to Holding Essentially you've got a prisoner's dilemma except why would I ever not choose Push