Military Shotguns

[Raellus]

What were the standard military shotguns for the various NATO armies in the mid to late '90s

I've seen U.S. army troops using both Mossbergs and Remingtons (various models) so it just kind of seems like the army, at least, buys a little of this and a little of that (or perhaps soldiers and/or individual units purchase their own) and perhaps there is no standard make/model.

[Targan]

What were the standard military shotguns for the various NATO armies in the mid to late '90s

USAF security troops used SPAS 12s didn't they

[pmulcahy11b]

USAF security troops used SPAS 12s didn't they

Only in the original T2K v1 timeline. Not IRL.

[Targan]

Only in the original T2K v1 timeline. Not IRL.

Ah. I see.

[pmulcahy11b]

Ah. I see.

It's in the RDF Sourcebook -- which makes sense in T2K, since the Saudis do use them IRL.

[Fusilier]

Canada - Remington 870

[jester]

The standard shotguns in the United States inventory were primarily the following:

Remington 870
Mossberg 590
Mossberg 500


Winchester Model 13 <I think, and those were fairly rare>

One could also encounter the following from OLDER STOCKS:

Ithaica Model 37 and maybe model 87s These were from Vietnam Stocks

Winchester Model 1897 <from WWII and earlier stocks>

When we did a fam fire of shotguns for guard mounts we would have usualy a mix of Remingtons, Mossbergs and Winchesters all plain Jane models with no extended tubes, no slings, no side saddle shell holders, some woult have a ramp sight, others would have a regular bead sight.

But those were the big three of the day.

And basicaly at that time, there would be a couple per company, you would find them for specific guard type assignments, in the armory, in special areas with sensistive mateiral and restricted access, our Paymaster Gunner who handled pay had a couple when they delivered us cash prior to the assault in split pay.

You would probabably find no more than four per company with more in the BN HQ and Regimental HQ but still not many, a guess as I never got a count when I was in the armory.

Company lets say about four, I know we had two or three for sure.

Bn, 2 for the armory guards, 2 for the Paymaster/Admin Cheif, S-2 1, those are ones I can confirm, I would guess another two for other guard posts and such.

Regiment, the same, about six again for specific guard details.

I at one time did know the info but its been over a dozen years. But generaly six shotguns per HQ unit and two or three or even four per company.


As for personal weapons, they were not allowed, BUT!!!! When in the Gulf prior to deployment we had asked and at the last minute the word was given that we could get our own pistols and shotguns if they were 9mm or .45 and 12 guage. And a officer in the reports did exactly it was commical, it said he had a pistol in every pocket! The downside for our Bn was we were in Okinawa when the word was given that we could have our own 12 gauges and 9mms and .45s I remember I was cleaning the windows durring field day when the Platoon Sgt said it was okayed, BUT, we had to arrainge for getting them there from home. GOOD LUCK with that! So I am guessing the powers that be knew that hurdle and it was next to impossible so they said "sure go for it"

Another thing,

I would imagine that once the war got hot and heavy, units would purchase their own stuff out of the company fund or pass the hat and order them purchasing them on open market, as well as old Salts brining their own stuff as the need for men increased and the demand for weapons commanders would be less anal about the rules. Especialy with the increase in Urban combat where they would be usefull, and also, granted I am no tanker type but I would imagine a good shotgun would be a good tool to remove unwanted guests from the top of your tank or APC without damaging to much external equipment as would a rifle round or SMG would do.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Only one I ever remember seeing in British use was the Browning auto riot.

[Brother in Arms]

WW2:
M97 Winchester Riot and Trench
M12 Winchester Riot and Trench
M10 remington
M11 Remington
M31 Remington
M30 Stevens
M520 Stevens Riot and Trench
M620A Stevens
M720 Savage
M37 Ithaca (my favorite) Riot and Trench

Vietnam they added
M870 Remington
M870 MK1 Trench (used by Navy and USMC)
M67 Savage
M77E sevens
M1200 Winchester Riot and Trench

Of course as they added newer shotguns in Vietnam but many of the older guns were still in use I have seen several photos of soldiers carrying M1897 trench guns in the RVN! I believe New M37's where purchased for use in VN (these were favored by the Navy seals and other a special forces groups)ARVN troops are often seen with 520 and 620 stevens shotguns and the M77E Stevens is said to be the most issued shotgun during VN but most where left to the ARVN at the end of the war as they where considered unsatisfactory for military service due to stock attachment point being weak often broke off the back of the receiver.

Coldwar Era:
M500 Mossberg
M590 Mossberg Trench

Where added to the in the Coldwar but some of the earlier shotguns were still being used most forgotten being the M1200. In fact I read a briefing from new Iraq war telling units equipped with old M1200 to turn them in for the new Benneli Joint tactical forces shotgun.

Best bet for twilight:
Mossberg 590 which would be the newest shotguns in the inventory and "replaced" the 870 Navy and Marine units. Though there are several pictures of Navy Seals carrying the 870 Mk1 in the 1990's. The Navy used a lot of Mossberg 500 on its ships toward the end of the 80's and my freind who was on a ship in 2000 said that is what his ship was equipped with.
Winchester 1200 for some army and air force units (saw a picture form the first gulf war showing a female soldier carrying a M1200 Trench)
Ithaca 37 could still be found kicking around in some unit inventories again navy being the most likely. But by the 80's I would suspect most of them had been replaced.

another interesting note I haven't seen modifications added to U.S. military shotguns from the coldwar era. But I have seen a picture of a commercial Sythentic Choate stock on a 870Mk1 Remington in the hands of a Marine and a factory Remington police top folding stock on a couple Remington 870Mk1 being used by Navy. I saw a picture of a top Folding stock on a Winchester 1200 Trench, and a commercial (butler creek or choate) collapsing stock on a mossberg 500. I have seen slings fitted to the Mossberg500, 590 ,870 but not as often as with none especially in older photos.

Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't remember which shotgun it was (it's on my site, somewhere), but the SEALs in Vietnam took a semiautomatic shotgun and modified it for automatic fire. They had mixed results.

[Legbreaker]

More suited to shooting low flying planes than anything on the ground I would think. The recoil on that is scary.

Had a friend tinker with his semi auto shotgun back nearly 20 years ago - good thing it only had a three round mag!

[pmulcahy11b]

More suited to shooting low flying planes than anything on the ground I would think. The recoil on that is scary.

Or low-flying flocks of ducks

[Brother in Arms]

Legbreaker
The shotgun in question sir is the 7188,which came in several different variations Mk1-MK6 though they are very minor (not sure if the 7188 should have the XM designation as far as I can find they were never formally adopted)

in anycase the shotgun in question was based on the Remington 1100 shotgun but with a full auto fire control group which had a 3 position selector switch instead of a safety button. Most had only 5 shot magazines but they did have a version with an magazine extension which had a 7 shot capacity. So total of either 6 or 8 shots with one in the pipe. This wouldn't last long in a full auto shotgun. Seems like you would be spending more of you time reloading it than shooting it. Which is already the case with semi-auto shotguns. Cheif James Watson discusses it briefly in the book Pointman.

Brother in Arms

[Legbreaker]

Yeah, fully auto is loads of fun, but practical is it not!



And that's coming from an ex M60 gunner!

[pmulcahy11b]

Here's something interesting -- I'm watching something about the Royal Marines on the Military Channel, and one of them on a patrol was armed with a SPAS-12. (It was a training exercise, so it may have been something they were testing out.)