OT: Deadliest Warrior

[waiting4something]

How about two WW II enemies that never faced each other in combat I'm talking about the USMC vs. the Waffen-SS. America's and Germany's meanest, thoughest, and most dedicated fighters never did encounter each other in combat. An episode of this show with that premise would be interesting.

Sorry, I'm way late on this topic. But, I think that would be a cool fight. The Waffen-SS is like a German version of the Marine Corps. They have a lot of simularities even though some people might find it offensive.

The show as a show of truth sucks. It's watchable as long as you can not take it too seriously. I only watched the Green Berets vs. Spetnaz episode and had enough. The Spetnaz pair had one Army and one Naval Spetnaz member That's like having one Army Special Forces and one Navy Seal and calling them Special Forces. The weapons tests were terrible comparisons. One group shoots a pig and another shoots a dummy, one shoots a balloon with a knife, then the other uses a E-tool on a dummy. Why not use the same control in your test As already mentioned why use a AKMS when the gun is supposed to be a AK-74

Like people mentioned already why not use a two military foes that have similar tasks. Rangers are more comparable with Army Spetnaz. Or Navy Seals and Naval Spetnaz, Russian Airborne vs. U.S. Airborne, and maybe U.S. Army supply clerk vs. Russian Army supply clerk.

Oh and a side note: what's with all the rolling around on the ground that the Spetnaz does. I mean do they think that they are harder hit if they do that, or where they hoping Hollywood would take notice

[boogiedowndonovan]

Season 2 of Deadliest Warrior starts April 20.

here's the matchups according to wikipedia

SWAT vs. GSG-9
Attila the Hun vs. Alexander the Great
Jesse James vs. Al Capone
Aztec Jaguar vs. Zande Warrior
Nazi SS vs. Viet Cong
Persian Immortal vs. Celt
Roman Centurion vs. India's Rajput Warrior
Somali Pirate vs. Medell-n Cartel
KGB vs. CIA
Vlad The Impaler vs. Sun Tzu
Ming Warrior vs. Musketeer
Comanche vs. Mongol
Navy Seal vs. Israeli Commando

[pmulcahy11b]

Sorry, I'm way late on this topic. But, I think that would be a cool fight. The Waffen-SS is like a German version of the Marine Corps. They have a lot of simularities even though some people might find it offensive.

Similar-quality training, but not morals...

[Matt Wiser]

One could say that the SS vs. VC has already taken place: at Dien Bien Phu. A lot of those Foreign Legion troopers at DBP were reportedly ex-SS men.

[pmulcahy11b]

One could say that the SS vs. VC has already taken place: at Dien Bien Phu. A lot of those Foreign Legion troopers at DBP were reportedly ex-SS men.

Sort of makes you wonder if the Legion was taking any Japanese WW2 vets at the time.

[Fusilier]

Spetznaz vs. Green Beret

[waiting4something]

Similar-quality training, but not morals...

Well, yes if you mean working at death camps. But, the U.S. Marines have never had the pleasure of working for weirdo's of the magnitude of Himmler or Hitler. Warriors are warriors we obey orders even though we may not agree or like them sometimes. I wouldn't say the Waffen-SS as a whole was bad or lacking morals. Most were just soldiers fighting other soldiers. The one's that got duty at death camps gave the others a bad name. I'm sure a lot of Waffen-SS guys at the camps didn't like there job there, but it takes a lot of balls to go against the grain especially in the military. I'm not defending the few that did horrible evil things to people and liked it, but I will defend the ones that were just soldiers. Society has giving the Waffen-SS a bad rap as a whole. I don't think that is the case.

I think the Waffen-SS had similar morals to the U.S. Marines. Both considered themselves elite and prided themselves at being under equiped compared to their Army counterparts and dropped into the worst hot spots.

[waiting4something]

One could say that the SS vs. VC has already taken place: at Dien Bien Phu. A lot of those Foreign Legion troopers at DBP were reportedly ex-SS men.

Yeah, you beat me to that one.

[Targan]

I wouldn't say the Waffen-SS as a whole was bad or lacking morals. Most were just soldiers fighting other soldiers. The one's that got duty at death camps gave the others a bad name. I'm sure a lot of Waffen-SS guys at the camps didn't like there job there, but it takes a lot of balls to go against the grain especially in the military. I'm not defending the few that did horrible evil things to people and liked it, but I will defend the ones that were just soldiers. Society has giving the Waffen-SS a bad rap as a whole. I don't think that is the case.

The SS did a whole bunch of horrific things, and not just involving death camps. Society has given them a bad rap because they were really, really bad news. The Wermacht were "just soldiers". The SS were a whole different kettle of fish.

Lets start with the Einsatzgruppen. "Just soldiers fighting other soldiers" IMO that is historic revisionism of the highest order. Seriously.

You specifically mentioned the Waffen-SS and could argue that I'm pointing out something related but slightly different. Alright then, this according to Wikipedia: "After the war at the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the Nazi Party and its involvement in war crimes." The Waffen-SS are a difficult group to defend I believe.

[kato13]

The SS did a whole bunch of horrific things, and not just involving death camps. Society has given them a bad rap because they were really, really bad news. The Wermacht were "just soldiers". The SS were a whole different kettle of fish.

Lets start with the Einsatzgruppen. "Just soldiers fighting other soldiers" IMO that is historic revisionism of the highest order. Seriously.

I agree with this assessment. While I am not one to paint every member of any group with the same brush, I think the number of SS members who would be "innocent" in my mind would be smaller than any almost all other groups which fought in WWII. The fact that they did not start as a military unit but rather a group of political enforcers also diminishes them in my eyes when compared to professional soldiers.

[waiting4something]

The SS did a whole bunch of horrific things, and not just involving death camps. Society has given them a bad rap because they were really, really bad news. The Wermacht were "just soldiers". The SS were a whole different kettle of fish.

Lets start with the Einsatzgruppen. "Just soldiers fighting other soldiers" IMO that is historic revisionism of the highest order. Seriously.

You specifically mentioned the Waffen-SS and could argue that I'm pointing out something related but slightly different. Alright then, this according to Wikipedia: "After the war at the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the Nazi Party and its involvement in war crimes." The Waffen-SS are a difficult group to defend I believe.

I love this topic! War criminals In who's eyes, the people that just got done fighting and getting shot at by them. The same people that dropped the Jews in the meat grinder with the Palestine's. Vietnam vets are called war criminals by some, but I don't think that's true either. The men under General Sherman's that burned Atlanta are war criminals to some people to this day. But, I'm not gonna blast the whole Union Army. What you had was a bunch of pissed off people that needed a someone to point a finger at like always, so you point at one group to focus your rage on. That group has to be one that stands out. The Nazis used the same tactic with pointing out the Jews for being the heel. The Waffen-SS is hard to defend because they have been played the bad guys over and over. I'll defend them, hell somebody has to.

And as far as Einsatzgruppen as I recall from WW2 history class in college, these people were not given that assignment, because they were top notch soldiers. They usually ended up in that outfit as a punishment or because they were seen as probelm children. So you got the bottom of the barrel doing bottom of the barrel jobs and everyone in the Waffen-SS is a criminal.

[waiting4something]

I agree with this assessment. While I am not one to paint every member of any group with the same brush, I think the number of SS members who would be "innocent" in my mind would be smaller than any almost all other groups which fought in WWII. The fact that they did not start as a military unit but rather a group of political enforcers also diminishes them in my eyes when compared to professional soldiers.

It was the SA that was the brown shirted political enforcer/thugs. The SS came into play later. There was two types of SS, the Waffen was the Armed or combat troops. Most these poor bastards went to the eastern front and didn't have time to be gasing and burning people. They did have time to get shot at, freeze to death, bayoneted, etc...etc... It funny to me how we as people are such pack animals. It's like MR. Pink in Reservior Dogs says, "tip these guys over here, but not these guys over here".

[Targan]

War criminals In who's eyes, the people that just got done fighting and getting shot at by them.

Well yes, and me.

The same people that dropped the Jews in the meat grinder with the Palestine's.

I don't really understand what you mean here.

Vietnam vets are called war criminals by some, but I don't that's true either.

Well some were war criminals, that is a matter of public record, but a tiny minority. There are bad eggs in every basket. I know that some Commonwealth soldiers have done terrible things too at times.

What you had was a bunch of pissed off people that needed a someone to point a finger at like always, so you point at one group to focus your rage on.

Actually in terms of WWII there are a number of groups we could point the finger at, not just the SS. But they are a good example of a group that was rotten to the core. Remember, "just following orders" isn't a valid defence and the version of history that most informed people accept is the one in which the SS were a really nasty organisation.

The Nazis used the same tactic with pointing out the Jews for being the heel.

Umm, the Nazis demonised the Jews through rampant anti-semitism that had little or no basis in fact. I and others demonise the SS because, well, they did really bad things. I would venture that the two examples are very different.

The Waffen-SS is hard to defend because they have been played the bad guys over and over. I'll defend them, hell somebody has to.

Well if you want to play the devil's advocate for the purposes of discussion, fair enough.

And as far as Einsatzgruppen as I recall from WW2 history class in college, these people were not given that assignment, because they were top notch soldiers. They usually ended up in that outfit as a punishment or because they were seen as probelm children. So you got the bottom of the barrel doing bottom of the barrel jobs and everyone in the Waffen-SS is a criminal.

Not everyone in the Waffen-SS was a criminal, but everyone in the Waffen-SS who was given an illegal order and followed it was (technically). I have no doubt that many of the forced conscripts serving in the Waffen-SS didn't want to be there but as I said earlier in this post "just following orders" isn't a valid defence. Just sayin'.

[waiting4something]

Damn. Maybe there should be just a thread on Nazi Germany alone! Some guys in Vietnam were war criminals sure, like a good chunk by your account. Guys in the Pheonix Program or guys that went outside of Vietnam's borders weren't following "legal" orders.

What I meant by the same guys that said the Waffen-SS are all criminals, are the same guys that said let's put all the Jews in this country already occupied with people that resent them and call it Israel. Bad judgement- I think so. The war drums still beat in Israel, because what these master minds did.

I think the Nazi's would not have been able to explot the Jews to have been evil if there weren't that feeling there already. Not dogging the Jews by any means, but they have been disliked by many over a long period of time. We all have heard the expression "are you jewing me." No I don't think Jews are any worse then anyone else, but right or wrong society has seen them in a bad light when it comes to money, which is a negative stereo type.

War is ugly, but I'm not gonna nail a trooper to the cross if he does something like shoots a POW because he can't afford to baby sit him. And that is seen as wrong too. Society has no probelm being a bunch of Jackals as long as it isn't their ass.

[headquarters]

The SS

Were a mixed bag ,Gentlemen.

Their cause they will forever be linked to is the inhuman fantasies of Adolf Hitler.It is hard to defend them as they fought for unacceptable goals.For sure the waffen ss was a nazi army .In fact they were elite nazies.

But , and I say this only because there is ALWAYS a but in war:

The organization as a whole was diverse in as much as this :
it spanned regular military units that were considered elite on the German side as well as running political schools,sports clubs,youth organizations,death camps,secret police,civillian enterprises in construction and research,political bureaus etc etc .The personell involved were different.The elite units had rigorous requirements to join.

The Waffen SS were mainly a military organization that conducted regular warfare .It participated in a number of war crimes,notably in Russia and Belaurs -but it was not an organization that was mainly used for such activities.(Waffen means weapon/armed SS as opposed to the other branches or the Algemeine SS ).

Other parts of the SS handled the more organized type warcrimes such as round ups,concentration camps ,penal expeditions etc .

Many units in the SS had excellent records of discipline and combat professionalism.And to shake the boat even further - not all were nazies (!).
Some were nationalists trying to fight the Red Army occupants any way they could.Other were anti communist of some variety .Dont forget there were two madmen with huge armies mucking about on killing sprees at the time -Stalin was a real treath as well..Alot of them were adventurous youth stuck in occupied Europe.Some joined for percieved economical benefits.

They fought on the wrong side - as we well know today .Back then it might not have been as black and white .Not all of them were the demons that they are made out to be today.

But nuances in the case of the SS is rarely accepted due to the horror it was fighting for.And maybe they cant be accentuated either -because important principles might get lost if things start to get to murky and grey area.

Lastly -war crimes investigations are rarely conducted towards units on the winning side -even when they are as plain as day as was the case in WWII.
The Waffen SS undoubtedly participated in its share and many got sentences for their part .On the other hand , profiled units on the allied side that conducted well documented indiscriminate massacres on civillians and used weapons of mass destruction on civillian population centers was treated quite the opposite.