Operation Manifest Destiny Ruminations

[natehale1971]

So night ops would be their preferred MO then

(Yes I'm having another crack at commenting in this thread - hopefully I'll start making some sense).

Military Airships during WW1 worked primarily at night. If you get a chance to research it, look up Peter Strasser. A WW1 German Airship commander who was one of the best the Germans had. He was actually respected by the British, when he was killed the British treated him to a military funeral with full honors just like they had gave the Red Baron. During WW2 the british flew stationary blimps all throughout london to keep fighters from flying low to the ground.

[kato13]

So night ops would be their preferred MO then

(Yes I'm having another crack at commenting in this thread - hopefully I'll start making some sense).

I have absolutely no disagreement with what Targan said above , In fact I support it.

[Webstral]

Targan, what I probably ought to have said already is that differing opinions are what makes a final product strong. I get a lot out of being challenged. I'm forced to do more research, and I'm forced to look at things I thought I knew. The more I read, the more I come to believe that it will be many years before Colorado Springs can attempt an Akron class of airship. I've been obliged to look at the Colorado-Oklahoma-western Kansas economy in an attempt to formulate some rational idea of how many people can be freed for industry of every type. Obviously, only a small number of them can be diverted to something like airship production, as every day life requires items like ammunition, soap, and clothes.

Webstral

[TiggerCCW UK]

During WW2 the british flew stationary bli@mps all throughout london to keep fighters from flying low to the ground.

Sorry Natehale, those weren't blimps, they were unmanned balloons called barrage balloons. They were used throughout the uk and even off the back of ships. Stormont, the Northern Ireland Assembly building, is near where I live, and along the sides of the driveway up to it you can still see some of the baseplates where barrage balloons were tethered.

[natehale1971]

Sorry Natehale, those weren't blimps, they were unmanned balloons called barrage balloons. They were used throughout the uk and even off the back of ships. Stormont, the Northern Ireland Assembly building, is near where I live, and along the sides of the driveway up to it you can still see some of the baseplates where barrage balloons were tethered.

I knew they where unmanned, i just didn't know what they where called... To me, the pictures i saw looked like what we call blimps here. But thanks for telling me what they where. I have always wondered... didn't they use them to hold up metal nets

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry, when you said blimp I thought you meant they'd been manned. Not sure about the nets but I think they did dangle cables from them, as well as the mooring cable. If I'm down towards Stormont anytime soon I'll try and get a photo of the base mountings, although they aren't particularly inspiring, just concrete blocks with rings through time iirc.

[Raellus]

So night ops would be their preferred MO then

I'd say a big yes to that.

I had to pick up my son from his preschool last year. I had to drive about 7 miles (averaging about 45mph) and cross through a narrow pass between two high hills to get there. The airship I mentioned took off from the regional airport at about the same time that I got started.

I got to my son's classroom, signed him out and was walking him back to the parking lot when a large shadow blotted out the sun. I looked up, and there, about 300m or so away, was the airship. All I could hear of it was the faint thrumming of its motors. If I hadn't have been outdoors, I wouldn't have heard it at all, I don't think.

I can see blimps/airships being extremely useful in inserting teams by parachute at night.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I'd say a big yes to that.

I had to pick up my son from his preschool last year. I had to drive about 7 miles (averaging about 45mph) and cross through a narrow pass between two high hills to get there. The airship I mentioned took off from the regional airport at about the same time that I got started.

I got to my son's classroom, signed him out and was walking him back to the parking lot when a large shadow blotted out the sun. I looked up, and there, about 300m or so away, was the airship. All I could hear of it was the faint thrumming of its motors. If I hadn't have been outdoors, I wouldn't have heard it at all, I don't think.

I can see blimps/airships being extremely useful in inserting teams by parachute at night.

I remember when they blew up Three River's Stadium in Pittsburgh to make room for the two new stadia that was being built at the time, the Good Year Blimo covered the implosion from the air. After it was over on TV, the Good Year Blimp went on it's way back to Akron, Ohio and it flew really low over my house. Before I saw it, I heard it's engines, it sounded like a huge swarm of bees, it even scared my poor cats.

Chuck

[kato13]

I remember when they blew up Three River's Stadium in Pittsburgh to make room for the two new stadia that was being built at the time, the Good Year Blimo covered the implosion from the air. After it was over on TV, the Good Year Blimp went on it's way back to Akron, Ohio and it flew really low over my house. Before I saw it, I heard it's engines, it sounded like a huge swarm of bees, it even scared my poor cats.

Chuck

I remember when I worked for the Firestone tire company, I felt it was my corporate duty to plan a take down of the Goodyear blimps. Just in Case our corporate cold war ever went hot

[Targan]

Epic thread necromancy for great justice!

The airship described in this article seems to be of a Lifting Body Airship design like those described in Airlords of the Ozarks: The world's largest aircraft has been unveiled - and it's a mammoth

The title is a bit confusing though. It's not really a mammoth

[kalos72]

After reading this post again...I love this idea for a comms satellite.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/tars.htm

[Wolf sword]

Here is a Nova program about WW One Zeppelin.
Their is a lot of info about how they work.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/zeppelin-terror-attack.html

[WallShadow]

Care and Feeding of Airships in the Twilight Age

In the name of thread necromancy, I command thee....RISE!!!! (pun intended)

Airships need fuel. Whether that fuel is gas is another question.

The availability of materials is an excellent question. One needs a framework for dirigibles, plus a buoyancy ingredient (like helium), and an airbag. The carriage should not be a big deal, although Im no expert. So long as there is a lighter-than-air mechanism, an airbag, and a framework, one should be able to create an airship.

Several members of the crew of Columbia have long experience with airships. It may very well be possible to turn this experience into practical knowledge regarding basic design, materials, and the like. In any event, there should be written materials in the Denver and Colorado Springs public libraries on LTA ships. Provided the PCs rescue suitable members of Columbias crew, they should be able to combine their knowledge with that of surviving USAF personnel, surviving engineers in the Colorado enclave, and printed references.

Based on my reading thus far, I believe the factors to be balanced are the volume of the airbag, the structural strength of the airframe, and the type of gas used to provide buoyancy. The greater the volume of the airbag, the greater the lifting power of the airship. Obviously, greater lifting power is better, all things being equal. However, an airbag of greater volume requires a larger airframe. Larger zeppelin airframes are probably harder to construct than smaller airframes. However, Im not at the point in my research where I can speak on the matter with any sort of authority whatsoever.

The materials of the airframe might be an issue, as well. Obviously, lighter and stronger are better qualities. Aluminum would seem to be an ideal substance, as it is both light and strong. How difficult an aluminum airframe would be to fabricate in the Colorado enclave in 2000 is beyond my ability to say at the moment. It would seem that there would be a good deal of scrap aluminum around, including unusable airframes. Again, how readily heavier-than-air airframes might be turned into LTA airframes is unknown to me.
Another option might be wood and epoxy. The Germans created an airframe out of wood and epoxy at the end of the Second World War. Im sure the engineering issues change when one talks about turning the technology for a fighter airframe into the airframe for an LTA a hundred feet long intended to lift fifty tons or more. Still, the possibility exists that wood and epoxy might yield good results. Wood, at least, is still plentiful in Colorado of 2000. How difficult it might be to manufacture the right kind of epoxy is another unknown to me. However, it have more confidence that epoxy could be created in Colorado of 2000 than scrap aluminum could be turned into a reliable airframe.

I'm with you on the epoxy angle, but there are other framing materials suitable and strong enough to form an effective airframe. Pultruded fiberglass/epoxy rods are fiberglass cables/strands stretched lengthwise, encased in epoxy resin, and cured. Think dome tent frame material only longer and thicker. These are being manufactured in at least one factory in Pennsylvania (and were, within the timeframe of the Twilight War). The combination of strength, lightness, and flexibility make the product suitable for heavy-structures--the owner of the factory told me that a large-diameter--around 3 or 4 inches-- model of their product was being used for safety rails at Disney World and had stood up to much punishment and didn't rust or degrade from constant exposure to the elements. Smaller diameter models were also in production, some solid, some with a hollow core. As an aside, I was exploring sources for making spears shafts for the SCA, and pultruded fiberglass was one of the options. Ya never know just when one bit of info comes in handy.
Also, lifting gas can be obtained in small caches from shoppes that offer helium balloons--a tank here, a tank there, and if you can luck into an industrial gas supplier, a whole bunch of tanks there. Also, if helium is the major lifting gas, it could be supplemented by a central hot air ballonet which could provide raw lift when needed, or allow rapid descent without venting precious helium.

The airbag is another issue. Still, knowledge of the tensile strength of various materials isnt exactly a secret. Again, a public or college library should have such information. Getting the right kind of material might be more of a challenge. Hot air balloons probably could be recycled into airship airbag material. Im a bit more dubious about the ability of MilGov to manufacture more of the right kind of materials from scratch. However, it seems to me that were really only talking about extruding polymers for a petroleum-based fabric. MilGov has petroleum in Colorado, if not in large amounts. With the right machines, Colorado should be able to work its magic. This leads me back to missions for the PCs.

Here's where the aramid, et al, fibers and fabrics come in; high-tech ripstop nylon, kevlar, nomex, etc. Racing sail manufacturing has embraced these materials to make relatively invulnerable sails. Modern airship designers have, too.

Of course, airships require rather large hangers or some other handling facilities. These would have to be constructed. Altogether, the construction of an airship fleet would be a very significant undertaking. But the payoff! The ability to move men and machines by air from one MilGov cantonment to the other would be gigantic. If MilGov in Colorado had or could make spare parts for the Cairo, IL refinery that could bring the facility back to something like its full production potential, the impact on MilGov enclaves throughout the Mississippi Valley would be incredible.
Webstral

So, I take it Akron, OH, would be a prize location to any wannabe blimp driving organization. The Goodyear blimp and its hangars are still there, AFAIK.

[swaghauler]

Airship Construction and Gas Generation

I was reading about how you thought one might construct an airship. your concerns about resources are unfounded if you have access to the resources of a military base or air base.

First. The range and speed of the Airships in the posts above are VERY SLOW. Even an improvised prop motor could push a Blimp at 80km to 100km per hour. The typical range at about 90km per hour would EASILY be 1000km with a standard sized fuel tank.

Aluminum would be (and is) the metal of choice. Airships can have multiple Gas Bags inside the superstructure and these bags can be made out of the same fabrics as hot air balloons. Old parachutes would make good material for the bags. You can seal them by simply coating them with either wax or mass produced pine resin. Just double stitch every seam and seal them with the materials above.

The gas is harder but can be generated anywhere IF YOU ARE WILLING TO USE HYDROGEN GAS.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 1:

Put an electrical current through ordinary water. If you use salt as an electrolyte, you can generate the gas with as little as 1.5 Volts of electricity. This method generates BOTH Hydrogen Gas AND Oxygen Gas (which is useful in a variety of ways). Carbon Graphite (from a #2 pencil) will make a good "electrode" in order to boost current flow from your electric source WITHOUT
contaminating your gas.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 2:

Mix Hydrochloric Acid and Zinc. This dangerous method will generate huge quantities of gas but also harmful byproducts. The reaction and acid byproduct are BOTH dangerous.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 3:

Put water in drain cleaner (or any product containing Sodium Hydroxide) or mix water with shredded aluminum foil (or aluminum dust) over low heat.



As you can see, there are a number of ways to make Hydrogen Gas that can be scaled up. You just have to be willing to live with the potential fire hazard of the gas.

As you can see, blimps are a very easy technology to reproduce in Twilight2000.

[WallShadow]

Aluminum would be (and is) the metal of choice. Airships can have multiple Gas Bags inside the superstructure and these bags can be made out of the same fabrics as hot air balloons. Old parachutes would make good material for the bags. You can seal them by simply coating them with either wax or mass produced pine resin. Just double stitch every seam and seal them with the materials above.

ISTR that the zeppellins used lots and lots of "goldbeater's skin" to line the ballonets to contain the Hydrogen. Luckily they later moved to using gelatine-impregnated cotton layer between two more structurally strong fabrics.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 1:

Put an electrical current through ordinary water. If you use salt as an electrolyte, you can generate the gas with as little as 1.5 Volts of electricity. This method generates BOTH Hydrogen Gas AND Oxygen Gas (which is useful in a variety of ways). Carbon Graphite (from a #2 pencil) will make a good "electrode" in order to boost current flow from your electric source WITHOUT
contaminating your gas.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 2:

Mix Hydrochloric Acid and Zinc. This dangerous method will generate huge quantities of gas but also harmful byproducts. The reaction and acid byproduct are BOTH dangerous.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 3:

Put water in drain cleaner (or any product containing Sodium Hydroxide) or mix water with shredded aluminum foil (or aluminum dust) over low heat.

As you can see, there are a number of ways to make Hydrogen Gas that can be scaled up. You just have to be willing to live with the potential fire hazard of the gas.
As you can see, blimps are a very easy technology to reproduce in Twilight2000.

Sodium Hydroxide="Washing Soda", no

During the American Civil War, Thaddeus Lowe had gas generators that used sulphuric acid to dissolve iron filings, thus producing H2 gas and Ferric (ferrous) sulphate, or so my long-ago Chemistry lessons are trying to convince me.