49th Armoured Division

[James Langham]

Another unit history. It isn't finished yet but as I am no expert on US units I would welcome feedback before I go much further.

As ever nitpicks and comments welcome.

[Olefin]

I dont agree with the idea of combat losses of tanks from July 2000 to the 2001 Howling Wildnerness and have stated that before - they were going up against marauders armed almost exclusively with a collection of small arms, both military and civilian - not against tanks. A Stingray may not be what I would chose to take on a T-72 with but against a guy with a SAW or an M-16 its not even close.

As for the tanks breaking down thats a possiblity - but if so a unit like the 49th would have M88's to be able to retrieve those tanks. Tanks are precious units that MilGov would do anything to conserve and retrieve especially after the US already abandoned so many tanks in Europe. And its not like they would be running out of fuel and having to be abandoned - they are basically right next to one of the last major fuel sources in the US. So even if they werent running for some reason they would make great pillboxes - just like they were at Krakow. And then when and if you get spare parts you can put them back into operation.


Unit desertion - I dont see Texas National Guard personnel deserting instead of staying with the only unit that has a chance to take back large areas of Texas - especially with the Mexican Army fragmenting and Soviet Division Cuba (as per Red Star, Lone Star) either falling apart or heading out of the state any way they can.

So instead of staying together they go home as individuals and thus basically hand over Texas to the marauders, Mexicans and Soviets and instead of rescuing their families and their state from the occupation they get to consign them for good to it Sorry but I know guys from the 49th - there are two chances of that happening - slim and none.

The 49th falling apart as it did is one of several reasons that Howling Wildnerness makes no sense. Especially considering that without them there goes the Oklahoma oil wells and any chance ever of retaking Texas.

And they bring home 43,000 men and no one in MilGov sends any reinforcements at all to defend oil wells and refineries which are described as vital to MilGov's power So they evacuate multiple armored divisions with men who are experts at maintaining tanks, fighting tanks, commanding tanks and know exactly how to fight a Soviet armored division - and none of them ever get sent to the one remaining armored division in the US

Again its why I ignore Howling Wildnerness as making no sense at all unless MilGov is somehow supposed to be a total collection of ignoramuses who somehow just throw away that collection of experienced men and allow most of their remaining military power to just waste away.

I love what you did James and its a very good read but unfortunately when you get into Howling Wildnerness timeframes it just falls apart just like the division supposedly did.

Its not specifically what you posted, its that you followed a canon that frankly I and several others feel was screwed up by what some of the authors of GDW did to take a timeline and a game and ruin it by doing everything they could do to destroy the US and turn their back on their earlier works and in the process really make the US military leadership look pretty foolish. (letting 43000 trained men go to waste in a world where such men are literally priceless is pretty much the height of stupidity after all)

[Targan]

My preference is to see Howling Wilderness used as the basis for ongoing works. So nice work, James. I like it.

[Legbreaker]

My preference is to see Howling Wilderness used as the basis for ongoing works. So nice work, James. I like it.

Agreed. Very good worth James. Obviously some effort made to make it all work and in my opinion rather successfully.

[James Langham]

My phillosophy

While I have no intention of reopening the canon v non-canon debate, I think it's worth me setting out my philosophy on writing my articles.

* There are many areas of canon that make little sense.

* There are many areas of real life that make no sense (just read any history book).

* I think some of the events in canon are debatable to say the least.

* Canon has contradictions - see the artillery for the School Brigade where it states a unit is added at one point and that no artillery was ever added at another.

* Real historians contradict themselves too.

* Even if we all sat together with a blank piece of paper we would never manage to create a background we all agreed on.

* My writing is NOT canon, unless Far Future needs a writer (hint, hint).

* I try and make my works compatible with canon so they are more use to more people.

* My writing style is intended to be a historian writing a history, historians make mistakes and are sometimes biased, you can pass errors off as this.

* Please feel free to use my articles as starting points for non-canon campaigns and change what you like.

I believe everyone on the forum loves the game in their own way (let's be fair, to be following a game after so long says a lot), everyone's campaign is different and we can all take ideas, modify and adapt them to suit.

[James Langham]

Olefin, please don't consider the bit above a criticism, I have many issues with canon, especially in the UK but as I stated I'm trying to stick to canon (and will always note where I don't and why).

I've made a few comments to explain my rationales below.

I dont agree with the idea of combat losses of tanks from July 2000 to the 2001 Howling Wildnerness and have stated that before - they were going up against marauders armed almost exclusively with a collection of small arms, both military and civilian - not against tanks. A Stingray may not be what I would chose to take on a T-72 with but against a guy with a SAW or an M-16 its not even close.

Agreed but guerrillas or marauders don't need to take them on. It's a big area and smart ones will just be elsewhere.

As for the tanks breaking down thats a possiblity - but if so a unit like the 49th would have M88's to be able to retrieve those tanks. Tanks are precious units that MilGov would do anything to conserve and retrieve especially after the US already abandoned so many tanks in Europe. And its not like they would be running out of fuel and having to be abandoned - they are basically right next to one of the last major fuel sources in the US. So even if they werent running for some reason they would make great pillboxes - just like they were at Krakow. And then when and if you get spare parts you can put them back into operation.

fuel is ok but parts will be a problem, even if they are produced you have to get them there. Pillboxes are great if you have to hold a position but there are few strategic points to hold, they could be bypassed. Once the retreat starts, getting to the vehicles is a difficulty in itself (an M88 crew with a couple of HMMWVs and a truck might make a great campaign group trying to retrieve precious vehicles).

Unit desertion - I dont see Texas National Guard personnel deserting instead of staying with the only unit that has a chance to take back large areas of Texas - especially with the Mexican Army fragmenting and Soviet Division Cuba (as per Red Star, Lone Star) either falling apart or heading out of the state any way they can.

Once you start withdrawing that falls apart, by 2000 loyalty to a nation is probably fading fast, families are now the big thing. I do plan to expand on my thoughts here in later drafts as this is a contentious point.

So instead of staying together they go home as individuals and thus basically hand over Texas to the marauders, Mexicans and Soviets and instead of rescuing their families and their state from the occupation they get to consign them for good to it Sorry but I know guys from the 49th - there are two chances of that happening - slim and none.

We have the benefit of hindsight as to what will happen. We also need to consider the effect of the war on people, by the timeframe here, many of the 49th will be draftees or middle aged reservists with families.

The 49th falling apart as it did is one of several reasons that Howling Wildnerness makes no sense. Especially considering that without them there goes the Oklahoma oil wells and any chance ever of retaking Texas.

And they bring home 43,000 men and no one in MilGov sends any reinforcements at all to defend oil wells and refineries which are described as vital to MilGov's power So they evacuate multiple armored divisions with men who are experts at maintaining tanks, fighting tanks, commanding tanks and know exactly how to fight a Soviet armored division - and none of them ever get sent to the one remaining armored division in the US

Again its why I ignore Howling Wildnerness as making no sense at all unless MilGov is somehow supposed to be a total collection of ignoramuses who somehow just throw away that collection of experienced men and allow most of their remaining military power to just waste away.

See previous post.

I love what you did James and its a very good read but unfortunately when you get into Howling Wildnerness timeframes it just falls apart just like the division supposedly did.

Thanks, I appreciate that, hopefully even if you don't use this other articles I do will be useful for you.

Its not specifically what you posted, its that you followed a canon that frankly I and several others feel was screwed up by what some of the authors of GDW did to take a timeline and a game and ruin it by doing everything they could do to destroy the US and turn their back on their earlier works and in the process really make the US military leadership look pretty foolish. (letting 43000 trained men go to waste in a world where such men are literally priceless is pretty much the height of stupidity after all)

A quick random thought here, how many could we remove with a disease outbreak on their return

[Rainbow Six]

James, well done - that's a well put together piece and is a good read.

A quick random thought here, how many could we remove with a disease outbreak on their return

Or by having one - or more - ships sunk during the crossing It doesn't even need to be as a result of Soviet action - look at the Titanic.

[Ironside]

And the Titanic was brand new, not worn out and undermaintained which is the likely condition of any ship by 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

And the Titanic was brand new, not worn out and undermaintained which is the likely condition of any ship by 2000.

Exactly. How many of their navigation aids would not be working And would they be under blackout at night just in case there was that remotest chance that a Soviet sub was lurking out there

[Olefin]

"My writing is NOT canon, unless Far Future needs a writer (hint, hint)."

Actually James I hope they do want you as a writer of new material - we could certainly use it!

"fuel is ok but parts will be a problem, even if they are produced you have to get them there. Pillboxes are great if you have to hold a position but there are few strategic points to hold, they could be bypassed. Once the retreat starts, getting to the vehicles is a difficulty in itself (an M88 crew with a couple of HMMWVs and a truck might make a great campaign group trying to retrieve precious vehicles)."

May I make a suggestion then - how about having the difference in tanks be covered by having them recovered and used as pillboxes to defend their HQ - i.e. Fort Sill They would only be pillboxes and not operational tanks - so the HW count would still be right as to operational tanks but the recovered but non-maneuverable tanks would be at Fort Sill used to defend their main base

I.e. as at Krakow - they have a bunch of tanks but most of them are just armored pillboxes - their maneuverable strength is much less.

And they could use the parts from the now pillboxes to keep the rest going.

Oh and Legbreaker and Targan - we know your position - you have stated it a lot. But for many of us - Chico, myself and a multitude of others we dont share it.

And James you are right about the canon being changeable - for one in my campaign when I played MilGov was part of the op to grab the refinery and Gulf Forty. So know they have a lot of fuel to play with in Texas. So the 49th there is coming to life again and in the process of liberating large parts of Texas in conjunction with the Grange and MilGov.

I would say this James - having MilGov send no men to the 49th at all from Norfolk is a huge mistake in HW - one that would never have happened. No matter how much of a canon defender or canon attacker anyone is there is no way that they dont send at least a couple thousand men to the one unit that is defending the Oklahoma oil wells and refineries.

Saying they dont just stretches believeability to the breaking point no matter how hard Leg or Targan want to say canon, canon, canon

You dont withdraw a bunch of tankers and armored cavalrymen and dont send a single man to the last armored division the US has - and we know that errors like that have already occurred in canon.

If 35 tanks can appear magically in the RDF US forces with no explanation given, if the size of the SOCCENT forces can be totally overlooked, if a French fleet can be mentioned but then not detailed in the RDF - then I bet a couple thousand men heading to the 49th and it still being at around 3000 men but most of the old TNG guys gone over the hill can be overlooked as well.

[Olefin]

We know the ships and the men made it here intact - that is canon. But disease afterward is a possibility. However keep in mind that these guys already survived the Carpathian Flu and a bunch of bio weapons in Europe - any bug that killed them with the immunities they have built up and drugs they would have been given would probably depopulate the East Coast before they started even getting sick.

[James Langham]

We know the ships and the men made it here intact - that is canon. But disease afterward is a possibility. However keep in mind that these guys already survived the Carpathian Flu and a bunch of bio weapons in Europe - any bug that killed them with the immunities they have built up and drugs they would have been given would probably depopulate the East Coast before they started even getting sick.

The obvious answer might involve the crowded conditions on the ships, these would be ideal for disease transmission.

[Olefin]

James - if there had been an uber plague that wiped out those men then it would have spread all over the East Coast from Norfolk. The fact that so few of those men ever go to any existing US units is yet another reason why HW needs to be ignored.

Simply put - Wiseman needed to come up with a way for the US to fall apart and not take Texas back - and he did it by not doing what the US would have obviously done - which is send 8-10K men to the units in OK and LA and take back Texas from the Mexican Army.

Plus keep in mind - 6000 men from Europe went to the RDF, with Kings Ransom written after the arrived - and those men didnt bring an uber plague there. Thus there was no plague.

Sorry James - wish it was different but what really happened was bad writing at GDW. Its another reason why what Chico was proposing - i.e. starting over at Going Home and this time having it make sense - sounds better every time you look at the issues with the timeline once you get to HW and Kidnapped.

[Webstral]

James, I skimmed the document and fount it very well-organized and clearly well-researched. Nice going! I hope I'll have some time to look at your work more carefully soon.

[Olefin]

By the way James - dont let my criticism of your following the HW canon in any way detract from the excellent job that you did. Overall it was a very good effort.