Why no China?

[kalos72]

Has anyone spent anytime on the Chinese forces

I find it blaringly obvious that China is totally absent from ANY detailed works.

[Legbreaker]

Well, since the Soviets basically blasted them off the face of the planet with nukes, does it really matter that much Whatever's left surely can't be all that organised, or in significantly large numbers.
Looking at the timeline info, it would appear China suffered very, very badly and in effect knocked back to the stone age. A radioactive, badly cratered stone age at that.

[kalos72]

Is there a list of China nuke targets

They had like 1 million troops back then I think...I doubt they get nuked that badly.

[Legbreaker]

No list anywhere in the books.

In the West, they are used sparingly at first, and for the first week are used only against troop concentrations no further than 50 kilometres from the Soviet border. In the Far East, however, they are used on a massive scale. Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centres still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared. Ballistic missile attacks on Soviet population centres are frustrated by an active and efficient ABM system, and the Soviet Air Defence Command massacres the handful of Chinese bombers that attempted low-level penetration raids. Within a week, the Chinese riposte is spent, but Soviet attacks continue. The Chinese communication and transportation system, already stretched to the breaking point, disintegrates. The roads are choked with refugees fleeing from the remaining cities, all of them potential targets. China begins the rapid slide into anarchy and civil disorder.

Note that all starts on the 9th of July 1997 and we hear nothing more about China in the timeline. The implication is China's war is over for all practical purposes.
We do see in the Survivors Guide to the UK that "Canton and the port of Hong Kong have been destroyed by small nuclear strikes" - the UK 6th Infantry Division (heavily damaged in the earlier strikes) withdrew there.

[Olefin]

Actually Chinese forces are mentioned a couple of other places - the retreat by the US Army into Korea happened after they had met up with Chinese forces and then were attacked in the same series of nuclear attacks that destroyed the Chinese forces

And the Soviet Army books detail that they are still fighting marauders in the areas they occupied - those marauders are most likely remnant Chinese units which may or may not have some sense of organization left to them - or may be like the Soviet units that fell apart in Europe and are basically just bandits with better weapons

There most likely are Chinese units that are still intact and functional - but completely cut off from any higher command and thus are basically functioning on their own - i.e. in places the Soviets would not have nuked - in that way they may be like the 43rd as described in Last Submarine - still a military unit, still with a functional command structure but not answering to anyone but their commander

[Olefin]

Actually one interesting idea would be if Taiwan had re-invaded to try to establish an area of control based on a surviving small port in an attempt to rebuild control over China or at least part of it - their military would be intact - the biggest question for them would be fuel supplies

[kalos72]

I just find it very odd that, with the largest military in the world, they simply vanished into marauder groups.

I found about 8 targets, all port cities really. But other writing has Hong Kong getting spared..."major coastal cities such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, Ningbo, Nanjing, Gingdao, Tianjin, Ginghuangdao, and Dalian".

"Inexplicably, Hong Kong and Macau escaped nuclear destruction, but today are near ghost towns and pirate refuges".

Anyone have any ORBATS for China

[Rainbow Six]

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

On July 9, the first tactical strikes against the NATO armies in Poland were launched. In the Far East much less discrimination was used against the Chinese. The large scale use of nuclear weapons ended the war in China. The Chinese were literally blasted back to the Middle Ages. With civilian and military authority gone, the Chinese slipped back into a system of warlord-type states. The end of the war in the East allowed the Soviets to release forces that were badly needed back in Europe. With the war over in the East. many of the divisions there did not look kindly on the new orders commining (sic) them to another round of combat. A wave of desertion and rebellion again swept the Soviet forces in the East.

That would suggest to me that they did indeed get nuked that badly and also (imo) supports the possibility of some Chinese units still being intact but operating autonomously. It also suggests (imo) that there might also be significant numbers of Soviet troops on Chinese soil also acting autonomously. It's probably not too much of a stretch to suppose that some marauder 'armies' may be made of Soviet and Chinese troops.

There's also a few references to China in Rae's Korean sourcebook all of which, as far as I can tell, support the view that China has been hit harder than any other major belligerent (Rae, feel free to correct me if that's wrong).

Others' mileage may vary of course. With regards Taiwan, I'm not aware it's mentioned anywhere in any published source other than a one line mention in Rae's Korean Sourcebook that sheds no light on whether their military is intact or not.

Re: Hong Kong, Legbreaker's earlier quote from the SGUK confirms that it was nuked but only relatively lightly.

[shrike6]

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

[Rainbow Six]

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

[Olefin]

If there is one place you could have a completely mixed up marauder unit with just about every type of equipment and nationality you can think of its China

Just imagine a marauder unit made up of the following:

surviving Chinese troops from a unit or units that got nuked

Soviet troops that deserted or the unit fell apart from literally every nationality and location in the Soviet Union

escaped American and South Korean POW's or survivors of units that got overrun

Polish, Hungarian, Bulgarians or East Germans that said screw this and decided to either get home or go off on their own - or who were prisoners of the Chinese and escaped or were let go when everything went to hell after the nuke strikes

Gurkhas from the British unit that got nuked near the Yalu

North Korean's that are survivors of the units that got driven north of the Yalu and decided they wanted nothing more to do with the war

and using the Korean Sourcebook you can add in possibly Australian, New Zealand or Japanese troops that were POW's and busted out of some godforsaken POW camp in North China

[RN7]

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

Challenge 31 Page 4

[Olefin]

Keep in mind the that Challenge Article may or may not be not be exactly canon (i.e. some what it describes about the Ukraine and other areas) - but it is a very good description of what happened to China from the nuclear strikes

[Olefin]

Has anyone ever even tried to put together a list of Chinese nuclear targets

[shrike6]

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

As well as other nationalities alot of countries were not really covered in the book. So its entirely possible that the Phillipines or some other third world countries, like countries of Latin America, sent some troops to Korea to help the US as well. So there may be a handful of escaped POWs from El Salvador as well for instance. Cause the Korean War had more than the Koreas, China and US in it.