Why no China?

[Olefin]

well face it having the German Army, of all armies, cross the Soviet border wasnt the smoothest of moves - not exactly going to bring back fond memories for the Soviets

however it was the Soviets that made the stupidest move and nuked the US - once the TDM happened there wasnt going to be any end to the war - the US and Russians previously werent going for each other's governments - but going for a decapitation strike on the US govt and military command centers pretty much ended any chance that the war was ever going to go to a negotiated end - especially when you add up how many civilians died in the "surgical strikes" in Florida and California and Texas - they basically took out a big part of the Los Angeles Basin, Philadelphia and northern and central Florida - after that the gloves were off

the fact that the US was restrained and didnt just empty their silos after that is actually pretty amazing

[Olefin]

This whole thread has really made me look at the possibility of doing something with China - even if all it is would be a basic China Vehicle Guide with basic details on their Army - lots of it would have to be invented though - there is not that much out there to really go on

[Legbreaker]

The Soviets were initially very restrained and only used tactical nukes against military targets in the west. It was Nato who escalated to theater nuclear weapons in September against "an array of industrial targets and port cities in the western Soviet Union".
The Soviets did not escalate, but retaliated.
BOTH sides had ample opportunities to de-escalate, the first earlier in July when the conventional Nato advance could have been halted at the Russian border, BUT I fully understand no commander in their right mind would want to take the pressure off an opponent and give them time to regroup.
The Soviets didn't HAVE to strike against the US, but remember they'd already suffered numerous strikes to their own cities and civilians at that point. To not strike would be to show weakness, and also allow the US to retain full industrial and economic capacity against their own already decimated infrastructure.

Stepping back you can see the chain of events which kicked off in China leading to nuclear war. There were plenty of opportunities to defuse the situation, but plenty of reasons not to do so as well.

[Rainbow Six]

Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.

Ive always felt that was a possible explanation why Hong Kong was only attacked lightly (per the UKSG). Prior to 31 July 1997 it was still British Sovereign territory.

By the time that ceased to apply China was probably in such a state that there was no need to nuke it further (thats assuming that the handover to the PRC actually took place at all given that by the end of July it sounds as though the PRC had effectively ceased to exist).

[Legbreaker]

A very good point there too about the handover date.
My guess is most of the work was already done by the time China was nuked, so the handover probably still happened.
However, it still makes sense for the Soviets to hold off on nuking the city until after the handover date, and possibly even until the first strikes were made against the UK itself, just to be safe.
Certainly makes sense to nuke it at some point though, it is one of the largest trading centres in Asia with good port facilities and a very important airport too. Leaving it intact, no matter who's officially (or unofficially) in possession of it would be a very big mistake.

[rcaf_777]

Thinking about doing a Group of Chinese Army Officers in the State

[RN7]

The is a listing of Chinese ground forces in the early-to-mid 1990's including relevant PLA Air Force and Navy units.


Peoples Liberation Army

2,300,000 Troops (including 1,075,000 conscripts)
0,600,000 Reserves

Organisation
7 Military Regions (including 28 Military Districts, 3 Garrison Commands)
24 Integrated Group Armies
10 Tank Divisions
84 Infantry Divisions
4 Airborne Divisions: 4 (under Air Force control)
7 Artillery Divisions
4 Air Defence Artillery Divisions
14 Independent Tank Brigades
21 Independent Artillery Brigades
28 Independent Anti-Aircraft Brigades
50 Independent Engineer Regiments
6 Rapid Deployment Force Battalions
5 Group Helicopter Battalions

* Chinese reserves add another 54 infantry divisions.
* Note Integrated Group Armies are equivalent to Western Corps (43,500 troops). Organization varies but typically includes 4 division (1 tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery) and 1 airborne brigade.
* Note: PLA divisions were smaller than Western and Soviet divisions. A typical Chinese tank division had 9,200 troops and infantry divisions had 12,700 troops.


Deployment

1) North-East Shenyang Military Region (Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning military districts)
5 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 19 divisions (3 tank, 15 infantry, 1 artillery)
2) North-Beijing Military Region (Beijing and Tianjin Garrison Commands, Hebei, Nei, Monggol, Shanxi military districts)
6 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 27 divisions (2 tank, 20 infantry, 1 Airborne, 2 artillery, 2 air defence)
3) West-Lanzhou Military Region (Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai, Sichuan, Xinjiang, South Xinjiang military districts)
2 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 13 divisions (1 tank, 12 infantry)
4) South West-Chengdu Military Region (Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, Xizang military districts)
2 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 8 divisions (7 infantry, 1 artillery)
5) South-Guangzhou Military Region (Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan, Hubei, Hunan military districts)
2 Ground Army, 8 divisions (6 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence)
6) Centre-Jinan Military Region (Henan, Shandong military districts)
4 Ground Army, 19 divisions (2 tanks, 13 infantry, 3 airborne, 1 artillery)
7) East-Nanjing Military Region (Shanghai Garrison Command, Anhui, Fujian, Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Zheijiang military districts)
3 Ground Army, 15 divisions (2 tanks, 11 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence)


The PLA was huge in numbers and fielded 8,000 MBT and 1,200 light tanks. The PLA had 6,000 Type-59 MBT, the rest were Type-69, Type-79 and a few Type-80 and Type-90. The PLA had for its size relatively few mechanised armoured vehicles and self propelled artillery compared to NATO and Warsaw Pact armies. The PLA did have 14,500 towed artillery guns, 3,800 rocket artillery and 15,000 AA guns. SAM's included HN-5/5A/C and some HQ-6, all basically copies of Soviet and Western SAM. Anti-tank missiles were also basically copies of Soviet and Western systems. The PLA had about 100 helicopters, all license built from France or purchased from the US.

The PLAAF (Chinese Air Force): The PLAAF controlled 4 airborne divisions that were assigned to the PLA. The PLAAF also operated 16 Air Defence Artillery Divisions and 28 independent regiments with 16,000 air defence guns and 100 SAM units with HQ-2/2B/2J and HQ-61 SAM.

The PLAN (Chinese Navy): The PLAN had a naval infantry force of 1 brigade of 6,000 troops facing Taiwan, and also some special forces. On full mobilization the naval infantry would include a total of 8 divisions of 52 regiments (10 tank, 24 infantry and 8 artillery). Additionally the PLA had 3 infantry divisions that had an amphibious role. The PLAN Coastal Regional Defence Force also had 27,000 troops organised into 35 artillery regiments who operated CSS-C-2 anti-ship missiles and 130mm, 100mm and 85mm guns.

Para-Military Forces: Chinese paramilitary forces stood at about 12,000,000 and included the Ministry of Public Security, the People Armed Police and the Militia.

The Ministry of Public Security is the principle police and security organisation of China. At this time the Ministry of Public Security was unarmed and stood at over 1 million personnel. The People Armed Police is armed and is responsible for internal security, law enforcement and maritime protection in China as well as providing support to the PLA in wartime. The People Armed Police stood at about 750,000 personnel at this time and controlled the Border Defence Corps, a Para-military force of 1,029 border, mountain and internal defence battalions.

The largest Para-military force in China is the Militia. There were two classes of Militia. The Basic or Armed Militia was comprised of groups of men and women aged 18-30 who had served or were expected to serve in the PLA, and who received thirty to forty days of military training per year. The basic militia included naval militia which operated armed fishing trawlers and coastal defence units, as well as specialized detachments such as air defence, artillery, communications, anti-chemical, reconnaissance and engineering units. They were grouped in the Armed Militia of up to 4.3 million organized into about 75 cadre divisions and 2,000 regiments. The Ordinary Militia included men aged 18-35 who met the criteria for military service. They received some basic military training but generally were unarmed. The ordinary militia had some air defence duties and included the urban militia and a strength of 6 million. In wartime the militia would supply reserves for mobilization, provide logistical support to the PLA, and conduct guerrilla operations behind enemy lines.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army

And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union

Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines

V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them

V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's

[RN7]

Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army

And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union

Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines

V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them

V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's

If we are playing V1 then my list above will be what the Soviets will be facing when they attack China in 1995.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that there are category A and category B divisions in that mix for V1- and also garrison divisions in that list

As stated before the big differences:

Category A - best equipment, best training - basically the mobile troops that were ready (at least in Chinese eyes) to take on the Soviets from the get go

Category B - second line equipment, standard training but not top of the line - i.e. more basic, not advanced tactics or familiarity with top of the line equipment - still regular troops but definitely not the cream of the crop

Garrison - static infantry divisions with artillery support (with some units being issued older tanks - and by older I mean very old)

example

1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region

Originally the 62nd Infantry Division the the 62nd Army Division and then reorganized in 1985 and renamed the 1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region

1st Garrison Regiment (former 184th Infantry);
2nd Garrison Regiment (former 185th Infantry);
3rd Garrison Regiment (former 186th Infantry);
Artillery Regiment.

Artillery most likely would be Type 60 122mm towed gun and Type 59-I 130mm towed gun and even perhaps the Type 59 100mm artillery pieces as well

It was disbanded in 1992 and became the Independent Infantry Regiment of Ningxia Military District. However in the V1 timeline it probably would have stayed intact as a garrison division

This might have been one of the divisions the 78th Motorized Rifle Division faced in Sinkiang

[Legbreaker]

Don't believe everything you read about the Chinese army's numbers, training or effectiveness. My ex was one of those militia. Their training consisted of 2 weeks of marching around doing civil tasks such as gardening and rubbish clean up (but mostly the marching). It happened once only in the dozen years or so they were supposed to do it.
They did however do a little rifle training - one day only with air rifles.

[Olefin]

Oh the militia suck - I agree there - basically they are good bullet absorbers and not much more than that - but the Category A and B troops are trained infantry - but definitely not up to US military standards for sure

[kalos72]

What sort of size are we talking for these divisions 3-6k

[Olefin]

Kalos - are you asking the size of divisions pre-war or by 2000-2001 timing

China currently has switched from divisions to brigades so their current force structure is different from the 80's and 80's

[kalos72]

Beginning really...I know the general thought is 2000/2001 they were hammered and a fraction of prewar strength.