Why no China?

[Olefin]

Oh I agree with you Legbreaker (look I said that and the world didnt end ) about the condition of the Chinese units anywhere near where the Soviet fronts were

And even if Chinese units survived intact in the south or central part of the country most likely many of them were garrison units - meaning that they would have been artillery heavy units with a lot of foot infantry - i.e. even if they still had any command and control left for China those divisions are not going to be ones you can move

and I will look thru my copy of the Soviet vehicle guide but you are right - there were definitely units that got moved after China got NUKED - definitely to Europe and I think the Middle East as well

[Legbreaker]

I'd be quite surprised if the southern units had much in the way of modern equipment, particularly artillery, armour and other vehicles. Much of that would have been required at the front (to get nuked a little later) and the "garrison" and training units equipped with cast offs and left overs.

[Olefin]

actually those units had a lot of artillery - but most of it was older artillery or fixed emplacements (i.e. coastal artillery, AA units, etc..) versus towed and mobile systems - so basically good garrison units - think German Army coastal defense divisions during WWII

[Legbreaker]

But weren't most of those emplacements on the Soviet border and therefore likely destroyed VERY early on.
Anything more mobile though is surely in the south with the 2nd and 3rd line units. Certainly wouldn't have done anyone any good up north where the old 37mm AT guns, etc just bounce off even old T-55's.

[Olefin]

A lot of the garrison units - i.e. coastal defense units - were still facing Taiwan - as well as providing security around Hong Kong and the like - so most likely there are still a good number of intact Chinese divisions in the south and central part of the country - but ones that basically have almost no armor or transport with artillery, mortars, etc. - but no real to move around except with draft animals or by foot

so while they provide a good source of security for whatever warlord they are answering to they really present no threat to what is left of the Soviet forces that are still occupying Manchuria and Mongolia

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

[Legbreaker]

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

And no wonder either really considering they're camped out in the most heavily nuked region on the planet. My ex comes from that area, it's not the most hospitable place at the best of times. Add in radiation and the horrifically cold winters...

[Olefin]

Units originally in China but then transferred (per canon Soviet Vehicle Guide )

1st Tank Division - sent to Europe in July 1997

9th Guards Tank Division - sent to China from Europe and then brought back in 1997 (unknown date)

18th Guards Tank Division - sent to China in early 1996 and then sent back to the West in summer of 1997 to Bulgaria

27th Tank Division - sent to Far East and then back to Europe for summer 1998 offensive

34th Tank Division - sent to Far East but limited action (early 1996) then returned in summer of 1997 for Bulgarian front

31st Motorized Rifle Division - China from the start, then transferred to western Siberia to put down revolt - mid-1998

33rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East mid-1996 then sent to Europe in summer 1997 for the Bulgarian front

37th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East shortly after the war with China began then back to Leningrad after China defeated

38th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China (limited action) then Korea

70th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China then back to Europe but nuked and only 100 survivors

70th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China, almost destroyed, 200 survivors in Tomsk

73rd Motorized Rifle Division - committed after initial invasion into China then sent to Siberia for security mid-1997

78th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Sinkiang Western China 1996-97 and on occupation duty till mid-1998 then Siberia

FYI this is the only canon reference to the Soviets invading Sinkiang or occupying it

102nd Motorized Rifle Division - China on occupation duty 1996, then Eastern Siberia unknown date

116th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China and almost destroyed in spring offensive 1996 - survivors withdrawn to Siberia after China collapse

118th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East division part of the drive on Peking - now in Eastern Siberia since mid-1997

128th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Far East in mid-1996 then to Poland summer of 1998 and nuked and nearly destroyed

173rd Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

194th Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

342nd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China in 1995, almost destroyed, survivors withdrawn to Western Siberia early 1998

6th Guards Air Assault Division - in China 1996 then Alaska in 1997

14th Air Assault Brigade - part of initial invasion of China sent to Austria for 1998 offensive

106th Guards Air Assault Division - part of initial invasion of China then to Poland during initial NATO offensive

203rd Air Assault - part of initial invasion of China then to Korea

63rd Naval Infantry - limited action against China then to Korea

32nd Attack Helicopter Regiment - in China when it collapsed then sent to Iran

Destroyed by the Chinese - 2 tank divisions, 12 motorized rifle divisions and 2 East German divisions

93rd Tank Division (category I) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

95th Tank Division (category II) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

47th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (survivors with the 39th GRMD in Poland) (spring offensive 1996)

68th Motorized Rifle Division (spring offensive 1996)

85th Motorized Rifle Division (1995 Chinese counterattack) (survivors incorporated into the 56th MRD)

112th Motorized Rifle Division (division cut off and lost late 1997 may be survivors - possibly destroyed by marauders/Chinese remnants)

133rd Motorized Rifle Division - upgraded to Category I and then sent to China and lost in spring 1996 offensive

139th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Manchuria in late 1996 and shattered almost immediately - may be survivors but no contact since 1997

146th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed late 1995 Chinese offensive by militia units

148th Motorized Rifle Division - nuked and thought to be destroyed by the Soviets in the fall of 1997 but may be survivors - unknown

160th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in 1995 Chinese counteroffensive

210th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in early 1996 at end of China 1995 counteroffensive

253rd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China late 1996, survivors joined 5th Tank Division late 1998-early 1999

300th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China from Mongolia after upgrade to category I, destroyed by China 1995 counteroffensive


Two East German divisions - dont remember date they were lost (1995)

Mutinied and in China still - 4 motorized rifle divisions

101st Motorized Rifle Division (late 1998)

141st Motorized Rifle Division - sent into action spring of 1997 - mauled by Chinese in their last offensive - stopped answering orders - unknown location

153rd Motorized Rifle Division - almost destroyed in last Chinese offensive in mid-1997 and mutinied in late 1998

156th Motorized Rifle Division - assigned to anti-partisan activities in China late 1996 and mutinied in late 1997 - marched back to Siberia

[shrike6]

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition. Here's what the 2nd edition Soviet Vehicle Guide has in addition:

Bulgarian 5th Tank Group

Disbanded in the early 1990s, this unit was reformed using cadres from other Bulgarian Tank Brigades, reinforced with a battalion of motorized infantry from the 7th MRD, and sent to the Chinese Front.
In early the unit commander with drew his forces from the front and began the long march home. As of 1 July 2000 the unit is a little west of Lake Baikal
Subordinate: Soviet 17th Army
Current Location Chermkovo, USSR
Manpower 300

Polish 4th "Pomeranian" MRD

The 4th was a prewar Polish Division shipped to the Far Eastern Front in late 1995 in response for troops by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of China the division was assigned to the Soviet 5th Army, where it remains.
Subordination: Soviet 5th Army
Current Location: Manchuria
MAnpower: 1000
Tanks: 5 T-55

[Legbreaker]

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition.

Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

[shrike6]

NATO Vehicle Guide 1st edition

German 29th Panzer Division/DDR 9th Panzer Division.

"The division was formed on 23 June 1996 by order of the East German government to replace one of the divisions destroyed in the Far East. It was designated 9th Panzer Division in honor of its predecessor."

German 211th Panzergrenadier Division/DDR 11th Motorized Rifle Division

"Originally part of the East German Army, the unit was formed up on 12 July 1996 as 11th Motorized Rifle Division. It was supposed to replace the original 11th MRD which had been destroyed in fighting in Northern China"

Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

Well, 2nd ed added info on Warsaw Pact allies otherwise true it was cut and paste with some modifications for the divergent history, probably more like 90% but anyways doesn't really matter. I have both. I bet you do too.

[Olefin]

Some information on Chinese units

A B category unit versus an A category unit would have the same unit size but very different in terms of training. Both are regular soldiers but in the case of the A units they would get the best equipment and training while the B unit would get older equipment and would receive a lower level of training in tactics (such as anti-armor or ambushes and the like)

A B category infantry unit is a motorized unit versus an A category infantry unit which are mechanized infantry units - with the corresponding differences in how they would be used in combat.

In 2005 a B unit would be issued with the type 63 APC and the Type 59 MBT and the type 81 Rifle while an A unit would get the Type 86 APC and the Type 96/99 MBT and would use the Type 95 rifle

Also an A category unit would be trained on the tactical use of helicopters where a type B unit would not be

And then below that would be garrison units that would be purely trained in security tactics and very simple infantry tactics - i.e. more for internal security than battlefield use

[Olefin]

So adding it up total Soviet effort against China

11 Tank Divisions - 4 still there, 5 transferred, 2 destroyed - one out of five divisions committed destroyed

40 Motor Rifle Divisions - 9 still there, 15 transferred, 12 destroyed, 4 mutinied after duty there - one third of the divisions committed destroyed or mutinied

So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997

[Legbreaker]

So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997

Absolutely. Even with the USSR and it's allies as powerful as they were in the game, there's no way they could maintain that level and number of multiple operations at once any longer. They NEEDED to close down at least one major front to give them a hope of surviving even as long as until winter.
Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation.
Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective.

[Olefin]

Absolutely. Even with the USSR and it's allies as powerful as they were in the game, there's no way they could maintain that level and number of multiple operations at once any longer. They NEEDED to close down at least one major front to give them a hope of surviving even as long as until winter.
Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation.
Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective.

I agree completely with you - look at their delivery systems that they had - basically bombers that had very little chance of penetrating Soviet air space and if they Soviets got off their shots first most likely no surviving long range missiles - a few Soviet cities in the Far East might have been within their capabilities but no way do they hit the vital areas around Moscow or Kiev or Leningrad or Baku

and the only other nuclear power in Asia is the US - which you correctly argue was only basically responding in kind - and when the Chinese got nuked hadnt been touched yet on US soil - so who is going to risk LA trying to avenge Peking

[Legbreaker]

Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.
So basically there's fault on both sides. The Soviets used them first sure, but that was effectively in self defence with almost all other options exhausted.
Nato retaliated, but widened the nuked zone.

My belief is the war went nuclear due to a failure of the various intelligence agencies, or those they reported to. Either the spooks didn't pick up the warning signs that the Soviets were being pushed to the brink, or those above chose not to accept those warning signs and made the decision to keep pushing forward with the misguided idea the war would stay conventional even in the face of Soviet defeat.