Morrow Aviation Assets

[stormlion1]

Big question would be how heavy is the Fusion Reactor and what kind of airframe would be needed to lift one. What needs to come out to fit it. A Grumman Goose may be too small without taking up critical cabin space. Fuel for the engines for most aircraft is stored in the wings. Would the Reactor fit in the wings Without overbalancing For some assets, fusion reactors would be less than ideal and just keeping a stock of Avgas on hand would be a better idea.

[Gamer]

The project does not need anything for air superiority, the Morrow group is about reconstruction not making warlords.
They don't have a need for F-5s nor the ability to maintain F-5s, they like every other jet aircraft are maintenance pigs, not to mention parts and fuel are coming from where they would become hanger queens within a month at most IF they even had fuel to begin with.

Light coin aircraft are what the Morrow group would have at most, I'm going with either Airtractors AT-802U http://www.802u.com/
or Iomax's Archangel https://www.iomax.net/archangel/
both raise absolutely no suspicion as they are made from agriculture aircraft, have very low maintenance requirements and flight endurance way beyond any helicopter or jet.

As for ww2 era aircraft made from modern materials I would go with Something similar that happened not too long ago.
There was a company called FlugWerk GmBH it was a company that had started building the FW-190 from modern materials, who recently sold off it's production capabilities to somebody else.

There is also Titan aircraft and it's T-51D http://www.titanaircraft.com/t-51d.php

There is also the replica spitfires for those of you who prefer them:

http://www.campbellaeroclassics.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/spittybrochure.pdf

There are the people of War aircraft replicas international http://www.waraircraftreplicas.com/
These aircraft are at 1/2 to 3/4 scale but people are buying and flying these things and it's not like you couldn't scale them up to full size.
There are even replica sopwith camels and the like along with F-86 replicas running around now.

So it is far from the realm of impossibility for the PBY, Goose or any of your favorite ww2 era aircraft to be rebuilt for MP (or anyone elses) use

Lighter than air aircraft have one weakness with helium and that is helium itself, unless you make it so that MP made a few of their fusion plants to create helium that gas is going to be as super finite as avgas would be for jets -assuming you even had any avgas.

You can't just keep avgas or any refined gas and call it good, it only keeps for a few years then is unuseable for it's intent and after 150 years there is not going to be ANY useable refined gas from before the war.
You will have to have MP design an alcohol or some easy to refine fuel to use in it's motor's if they aren't going to be fusion powered.

[stormlion1]

The US has natural Gas reserves of Helium, the project could buy up a field and then sit on it giving them a five year after supply of the stuff. They could also go and do the stupid thing and use Hydrogen, which is riskier but is something they can make with the right equipment.

[Gamer]

Storm, there is a law for the reserve to be sold off by 2015.
MP could buy up a lot but then are stuck with having to find a place to store it so it doesn't leak and yet still able to access it.
There are only so many caverns that you can store it in and able to get to.

It is still a finite resource unless you make it so that the fusion reactors can make more of it and you have a place to store that, what is the point of it in the first place
The balloons leech the stuff like crazy, it's not like you can just get some and keep it forever in the balloon due to helium permutation you have to regularly fill the balloons or it's gone forever.

The military itself has been having problems logistically for some time with it's fleet.

Logistics is going to be everything, if it isn't practical it isn't worth it.

[ArmySGT.]

The project does not need anything for air superiority, the Morrow group is about reconstruction not making warlords.
They don't have a need for F-5s nor the ability to maintain F-5s, they like every other jet aircraft are maintenance pigs, not to mention parts and fuel are coming from where they would become hanger queens within a month at most IF they even had fuel to begin with.

Light coin aircraft are what the Morrow group would have at most, I'm going with either Airtractors AT-802U http://www.802u.com/
or Iomax's Archangel https://www.iomax.net/archangel/
both raise absolutely no suspicion as they are made from agriculture aircraft, have very low maintenance requirements and flight endurance way beyond any helicopter or jet.

I disagree.

I am sure that the Project would purchase and use light COIN aircraft.

COIN aircraft do not operate unless your side owns air superiority. Look at A-1 Skyraiders
operating in the COIN and air support mission in Viet Nam. These were regularly in danger from Mig -17s and Mig-19s operated by the North.

The Project doesn't need a large fleet. Flights of four (2x2) operating from Prime and the largest regional bases is enough. These to cover the air over those large important assets and protect them from Soviet bombers, rogue military forces, and act in the air to ground mission on extreme cases.

Air Superiority is the key to freedom of movement on the ground.

As for fuel......... Turbines eat anything that can be sprayed as a mist ahead of the compressor. AvGas is just kerosene. Kerosene is 1880s technology and not something that is difficult to refine.

This assumes that Project F-5s need fuel....... An electric motor that turns a turbine could conceivably draw in and compress air until the air itself ignited and made thrust.

[ArmySGT.]

Big question would be how heavy is the Fusion Reactor and what kind of airframe would be needed to lift one. What needs to come out to fit it. A Grumman Goose may be too small without taking up critical cabin space. Fuel for the engines for most aircraft is stored in the wings. Would the Reactor fit in the wings Without overbalancing For some assets, fusion reactors would be less than ideal and just keeping a stock of Avgas on hand would be a better idea.

Depends...... The one sized for a V-150 would fit in the current nacelles with space left over for the high torque electric motor.

[Gamer]

That is going to highly depend on the power output of that reactor, but
I highly doubt you'll need reactors in each nacelle.
The size and weight of the electric motor will help offset the weight of reactor if that is an issue.
The biggest boon you'll get out of it is the plane will be deathly quiet, so quiet you won't even hear it during taxiing much less in the air
Aerial recon is going to be very easy with the only way people finding out your around is they happen to spot you, but not ever seeing such things before they may not understand what they see.

The Green 172 -Cessna 172 with electric motor- has been around for a few years.
The motor life is estimated at 30,000 hours and has only 2 moving parts.
That would be an unholy massive advantage to the MP.
There are many types of ultra-lites running on electric motors for those that don't want full sized aircraft.

The thing that people might have an issue with is if you have a reactor powered aircraft, especially with autonav your range will be crew dependent only.

[Gamer]

I disagree.

I am sure that the Project would purchase and use light COIN aircraft.

COIN aircraft do not operate unless your side owns air superiority. Look at A-1 Skyraiders
operating in the COIN and air support mission in Viet Nam. These were regularly in danger from Mig -17s and Mig-19s operated by the North.

The Project doesn't need a large fleet. Flights of four (2x2) operating from Prime and the largest regional bases is enough. These to cover the air over those large important assets and protect them from Soviet bombers, rogue military forces, and act in the air to ground mission on extreme cases.

Air Superiority is the key to freedom of movement on the ground.

As for fuel......... Turbines eat anything that can be sprayed as a mist ahead of the compressor. AvGas is just kerosene. Kerosene is 1880s technology and not something that is difficult to refine.

This assumes that Project F-5s need fuel....... An electric motor that turns a turbine could conceivably draw in and compress air until the air itself ignited and made thrust.

running on compressed air alone you can't really be serious.
you might as well forget any jet you're fawning over, it isn't gong to happen.

You can disagree all you want and do it in your own game, but the fact is, MP has no need for combat jets for air superiority.
If it was afraid of aircraft THAT much why is there not any serious anti-aircraft weaponry anywhere in the books
Something far easier to obtain, maintain, and operate than ANY jet aircraft.
Stinger systems are not a serious system, a nice tactical battlefield defense system yes.

COIN aircraft do not operate unless your side owns air superiority.

Yes they do, and will continue to do so, COIN has changed dramatically since Vietnam as has air to air capabilities.
COIN aircraft have proven they are a bitch to detect much less hit with look down shoot down capabilities.
Helos are easy due to that lovely radar reflection from the rotors and I've been sent in on helo's minus escort into combat zones before any air superiority was achieved or desired several times in my career.
Modern coin capabilities fly way lower than any air superiority jet pilot even dreams of going (married one).

Air Superiority is the key to freedom of movement on the ground.

The Morrow Project is NOT and NEVER has been set up you own local warlord.
The morrow porject does not field an army.
It fields small teams spread out through the united states, NOT in Iraq or afghanistan, Russia, Crimea, Germany or Poland.
WHO after WW3 and all those nukes is going to have any desire to continue the war
EMP alone is going to make and end to long range aircraft going anywhere.
Hardened systems only protects against a few nukes going off not hundreds -to thousands -yes the us military does teach that fact-
Just HOW are the soviets getting those aircraft to the states to the degree that requires the Morrow project to demand air superiority aircraft be stored away
You expect them to sacrifice Ilyushin tankers just to bomb a nuked US
They will need all the aircraft for themselves after all they are surrounded by far more people against them than we are.
The collapse of governments will bring a cease to hostilities to the degree you insist is going to happen.
Nobody with such aircraft left is going to waste them on a fools errand on sending them all the way over to bomb an already nuked to collapse United States, nothing more is to be gained.
You seem to be missing the theme of the game yourself.

Avgas is not kerosene, jet A, or JP-8.
Unless you take every and all precautions on storing it (and it's still not a guarantee) you will have some interesting things to deal with in the fuel to preserve your aircraft.

[kato13]

Gamer,

While I think you are right about the canon project probably not needing anything approaching a high-powered jet, I still find ArmySgt's posts interesting and potentially useful.

I have planned games using the Phoenix Project rules (A Morrow rules clone) and in those games there is military involvement in the project. That upgrades equipment at every level.

Everyone's project is different. For example, I want ALL my project's teams to bristle with firepower (marauders will look at them like porcupines). "No way im going to touch that". This is often more for show than for combat, but it allows my regional teams enough freedom to reach their local rally points. So in my project plan, once a community support team reached the rally point more than half of the heaviest equipment would have been put in an armory, and they would move into areas, that have been swept by mars and recon teams, with a much less intimidating appearance.

The personality of my gaming group is one that very much avoids combat, but I think they want a project to be prepared for almost anything (if it had actually worked). I also want the project planners to have a desire to have a technical edge over most 5 year post threats.

It is possible some warlord has the Commemorative Air Force(formerly Confederate Air force) under his control. So to counter that I give my project 4-8 A-37s that can be fitted with AAMs. F-5s are a little heavy for my taste, but if any threat is going to have prop planes it is nice to have a jet trump card.

Maybe the surviving US Military, who I believe the project is supposed to help if they get the chance, could really use 4 jets which have been sheltered from EMP and have a full logistical chain.

Just food for thought.

[stormlion1]

While I don't see the Project needing Fighter Aircraft I can see them stocking one or four away for a rainy day. But without dedicated Pilots and a limited amount of Avgas and munitions. There job is to aid in rebuilding not arm the USAF or combat Russian Forces. At most they would be dedicated to aiding Mars Teams if they were in distress but that is about it. The resources would be better spent on cargo aircraft and small aircraft for survey work. The major issue is that while a Fighter plane might survive five years unattended (Will they be in sealed bunkers or in Bolt Holes with inert gas That's a lot of inert gas.) One hundred and fifty years after the fact there going to be so much junk and any landing fields will be either broken up asphalt or grass covered fields. Just clearing a usable landing strip unless its a desert environment will be a major undertaking. So if there are any fighter planes they would be limited to desert regions because there just won't be enough usable landing strips to even use them without a huge landscaping project needing to be done.

[kato13]

The major issue is that while a Fighter plane might survive five years unattended (Will they be in sealed bunkers or in Bolt Holes with inert gas That's a lot of inert gas.)

A modified A-10 flew on cellulose processed into alcohol a few years ago.
This could be another Project development. If the agricultural teams do their job, there should be MUCH surpluss cellulose.

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Biofuels/US-Air-Force-Completes-First-Test-Flight-Run-on-New-Alcohol-Based-Jet-Fuel.html

One hundred and fifty years after the fact there going to be so much junk and any landing fields will be either broken up asphalt or grass covered fields.

When I plan my project I try not to think about the 150 year mistake, unless it is lethal to the team. With teams waking up randomly a lot of equipment ends up being only borderline useful as it was expected to synergize with other teams.

[Jeff9650]

What about the Project using the V-22 Osprey All the teathing problems aside, I can see the Project supply bases using an Aircraft that has the lift of a heavy aircraft, and the vertical power of a helicopter.

[nuke11]

Idea Twist

Gamer,

It is possible some warlord has the Commemorative Air Force(formerly Confederate Air force) under his control. So to counter that I give my project 4-8 A-37s that can be fitted with AAMs. F-5s are a little heavy for my taste, but if any threat is going to have prop planes it is nice to have a jet trump card.

Actually I like the idea of the State of Texas controlling the CAF resources better, along with whatever was left of the US military air assets in Texas.

They have some interesting plans that can fly long ranges to say the KFS.

The P-47N-5RE they have is an extreme long range bomber escort (3200 km range). It is more than capable of flying to the KFS on photo recon and back, from the center of Texas to the center of Kentucky is only 1566 Km.

Interesting addition to any KFS campaign out there.

[nuke11]

I'm for the MP having air assets, but not that much of it.

Hiding stuff around the country at the smaller airfields is easy to do, currently working on an MP Airbase for release later, but there are dozens and dozens of small air fields around the country that MPI can purchase and use to store air assets.

I'm leaning myself to 1 / 2 engine prop and small helicopters . Since we have the CH-47 and C-130 from Prime Base, we have to include them as well, but in limited numbers and very limited locations.

[ArmySGT.]

running on compressed air alone you can't really be serious.
you might as well forget any jet you're fawning over, it isn't gong to happen.

Quite serious. Compression makes combustion.

You can disagree all you want and do it in your own game, but the fact is, MP has no need for combat jets for air superiority.
If it was afraid of aircraft THAT much why is there not any serious anti-aircraft weaponry anywhere in the books
Something far easier to obtain, maintain, and operate than ANY jet aircraft.
Stinger systems are not a serious system, a nice tactical battlefield defense system yes.

Chapparal (Sidewinder AA missile) starts on pages 18-19 in the 3rd edition. Found on the MARS One, Science One, and Prime Base. A large Medium category Air Defense missile system.

Yes they do, and will continue to do so, COIN has changed dramatically since Vietnam as has air to air capabilities.
COIN aircraft have proven they are a bitch to detect much less hit with look down shoot down capabilities.
Helos are easy due to that lovely radar reflection from the rotors and I've been sent in on helo's minus escort into combat zones before any air superiority was achieved or desired several times in my career.
Modern coin capabilities fly way lower than any air superiority jet pilot even dreams of going (married one).

COIN aircraft rely on Air Superiority fighters to keep the skies clear. Iraq or Afghanistan isnt a good example as the Iraqi air force wasnt very credible to start with and the Mujahideen didnt have pilots. (helos, yes; fighters, no)

COIN aircraft are Air to Ground support aircraft. Calling them COIN aircraft is just obscuring they title to support the hearts and minds campaign. Much like a dropping a bomb on a bridge became oeservicing a target.

The Morrow Project is NOT and NEVER has been set up you own local warlord.
The morrow porject does not field an army.
It fields small teams spread out through the united states, NOT in Iraq or afghanistan, Russia, Crimea, Germany or Poland.

Yet, there is the MARS One vehicle. Which has no rescue equipment other than a med unit.

WHO after WW3 and all those nukes is going to have any desire to continue the war

Apparently both sides.. In the oeFringeworthy: Complete CD collection from Tri Tac Games (owned by Richard Tucholka) is some supporting material for the Morrow Project. The War begins 19 November, 1989 and lasts several months. Denver is the last place known nuked and that is for atleast the third time.

EMP alone is going to make and end to long range aircraft going anywhere.
Hardened systems only protects against a few nukes going off not hundreds -to thousands -yes the us military does teach that fact-

I am a graduate of the NBC NCO course 1999. EMP has been highly overrated.

Just HOW are the soviets getting those aircraft to the states to the degree that requires the Morrow project to demand air superiority aircraft be stored away

Bear bomber have exceptional range for their class, some models with ranges greater than 9,000 miles. Enough to strike targets in the upper continental US and return without refueling with an over the Pole course.

You expect them to sacrifice Ilyushin tankers just to bomb a nuked US

Nope, the tankers will be in their race track orbits over the Soviet arctic shoreline as the NATO ones will be over the Canadian shoreline with interceptor aircraft nearby to protect them.

They will need all the aircraft for themselves after all they are surrounded by far more people against them than we are.

Possibly, depends upon the State of things. If it is 1989.. Not so much. China is their friends, South Korea and Japan cant do much beyond their territorial waters. Europe is going to catch some nukes, then Russian will dominate their air space and sea lanes. Europe will fall.

The collapse of governments will bring a cease to hostilities to the degree you insist is going to happen.

Governments will but the military in each is going to carry on as long as they can. Russia has the oeDead Hand system for example.

Nobody with such aircraft left is going to waste them on a fools errand on sending them all the way over to bomb an already nuked to collapse United States, nothing more is to be gained.

Retaining the initiative, denying the enemy maneuver, and disrupting war or domestic production are typical reasons for strategic bombing missions.

You seem to be missing the theme of the game yourself.

No, I plan for what the Project was supposed to be if it had functioned properly. Then, I have fun taking away all the toys, giving the Team something that almost could be useful, or having a reasonable explanation for how the oeCavalry is what it is.

Avgas is not kerosene, jet A, or JP-8.
Unless you take every and all precautions on storing it (and it's still not a guarantee) you will have some interesting things to deal with in the fuel to preserve your aircraft.

Production of aviation fuel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_fuel
The production of aviation fuel falls into two categories: fuel suitable for turbine engines and fuel suitable for internal combustion engines. There are international specifications for each.
Jet fuel is used in both turboprop and jet aircraft, and must maintain a low viscosity at low temperature, meet definite limits in terms of density and calorific value, burn cleanly, and remain chemically stable when heated to high temperature.[3]

Aviation gasoline, often referred to as "avgas", is a highly refined form of gasoline for aircraft, with an emphasis on purity, anti-knock characteristics and minimization of spark plug fouling. Avgas must meet performance guidelines for both the rich mixture condition required for take-off power settings and the leaner mixtures used during cruise to reduce fuel consumption.
Avgas is sold in much lower volume than jet fuel, but to many more individual aircraft operators; whereas jet fuel is sold in high volume to large aircraft operators, such as airlines and military.[4]
Avgas (aviation gasoline) is used in spark-ignited internal-combustion engines in aircraft. Its formulation is distinct from mogas (motor gasoline) used in cars. Avgas is formulated for stability, safety, and predictable performance under a wide range of environments, and is typically used in aircraft that use reciprocating or Wankel engines.
Jet fuel is a clear to straw-colored fuel, based on either an unleaded kerosene (Jet A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (Jet B). It is similar to diesel fuel, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.
Jet-A powers modern commercial airliners and is a mix of pure kerosene and anti-freeze and burns at temperatures at or above 49 degrees Celsius (120 degrees Fahrenheit). Kerosene-based fuel has a much higher flash point than gasoline-based fuel, meaning that it requires significantly higher temperature to ignite. It is a high-quality fuel; if it fails the purity and other quality tests for use on jet aircraft, it is sold to other ground-based users with less demanding requirements, like railroad engines.[5]