Morrow Aviation Assets

[ArmySGT.]

I never left Sgt. just got stuck with a lack of creativity and various issues that mean I am well and truly scuppered.

But in regards to the Hind, yes it is armoured, but if you have the doors open and a round goes though the open door and hits the underside of the engine, I think it will do damage, as I don't recall that part being armoured as well.

Can you go back to University for Graphic Design Those M20 skills are pretty impressive.

[LBraden]

Can't afford it, but I do bits here and there, will up my Deviant Art page in my sig, as I have done some non Morrow stuff, and my next plan is an aircraft, that Morrow could have possibly used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTV_XC-142

[stormlion1]

Nice plane, seen it when I went to Dayton a few years back. And a aircraft I could see as being used by the Project.

[ArmySGT.]

Can't afford it, but I do bits here and there, will up my Deviant Art page in my sig, as I have done some non Morrow stuff, and my next plan is an aircraft, that Morrow could have possibly used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTV_XC-142

I have your DeviantArt page marked to "watch" and have been patiently awaiting your updates for months.

Maybe you could tackle some Kentucky Free States equipment Or let out your inner "Mad Max" on some Gypsy Truckers or Warriors of Krell

I think I will do up some game stats for a Grumman Goose and a PBY Catalina.

Amphibious Observation and Search & Rescue planes for the MARS division.

Updated electronics, Carbon fiber skins, titanium alloy frame members, and fusion powered electric propellers.

Huge weight savings in not having to carry thousands of pounds of fuel.

[LBraden]

One of the things I am stalled on is some good images for "External Stores", such as fuel tanks, missiles, rocket pods, dumb bombs, guided bombs, ELINT pods, Gun pods, Areal Torpedoes, etc.

I don't really do "mad max" and I have been trying to knock off a few more vehicles, but as with everything, if I don't have all the pieces, I can get stalled, which is why my "Aviation projects" are stalled until I get get the external stores images.

If I get other stuff, such as field shell images for sizing and such, I may do big guns and tanks, but for now, I am trying to do air, but google search is failing me.

[ArmySGT.]

One of the things I am stalled on is some good images for "External Stores", such as fuel tanks, missiles, rocket pods, dumb bombs, guided bombs, ELINT pods, Gun pods, Areal Torpedoes, etc.

I don't really do "mad max" and I have been trying to knock off a few more vehicles, but as with everything, if I don't have all the pieces, I can get stalled, which is why my "Aviation projects" are stalled until I get get the external stores images.

If I get other stuff, such as field shell images for sizing and such, I may do big guns and tanks, but for now, I am trying to do air, but google search is failing me.

Go to Scribd.com

Hundreds of field manuals from different countries have been uploaded by various users.

To use it for free, they have a upload one to download one policy. A year membership is pretty low though.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/213392736/Worldwide-Equipment-Guide-WEG-Update-2011-Vol-1-Ground-Systems

[LBraden]

Just for the people who want a possible "heavy fighter"

http://braden1986.deviantart.com/art/A-20-Havoc-451833313

[Capt Gideon]

Chaparral is NOT Sidewinder

Chaparral MIM-72 is based on a Sidewinder AIM-9 missile, but was modified to operate from a ground launch platform. It used a different rocket motor and reduced control surfaces. MIM-72A only had a range of 6000 meters and a speed of Mach 1.5 (1838 kph)(510.6 m/s) or 1.8 km per Combat Turn. the later MIM-72C&G version are listed at having a range of 9000 meters, with the G version have a new smokeless motor and the same IR seeker as FIM-92 Stinger. Where someone came up with the idea of 17,700m range for Chaparral is by treating it as the air launched version which it isn't. Chaparral being launched from the ground does not have Sidewinders advantage of being air launched where it is already at near Mach speeds. It has to provide all its own energy to gain speed and altitude, requiring a different type of rocket motor. This is why there were projections for improvements to the ADATS, giving it a IR seeker in addition to laser homing and a secondary version that would use a AIM-120 AMRAAM seeker in place of the original laser homing system, which would improve range. But who says the KFS doesn't have jet technology and just not shown it yet. A version of the follow on to the ME262 or other early jets, like flying wing bombers could throw a real challenge for the team.

[rcaf_777]

What about the

Piper PA-48 Enforcer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer
Cavalier Mustang - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_Mustang
North American P-51 Mustang - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...t-World_War_II

[welsh]

I think those would be better choices than F5s, and certainly a better balance to the KFS, but the problem is - why develop a fighter aircraft (with all the resources necessary to maintain the plane) when there are applications that need attention Given the Morrow mission, why purchase fighters We can leave aside the difficulty in buying advanced military fighter aircraft- something multinational enterprises usually don't do, but which might be sidestepped if you buy duel use. Of course with a heavy dose of imagination, I guess anything is possible.

The problem of having dedicated air assets in a fighter or even attack capacity, suggests that the project would anticipate the need for it in lieu of other purposes. Given that the project was supposed to rebuild after a nuclear war, I would think that aircraft, if budgeted, would be needed for recon and transportation, be low maintenance, technologically not very sophisticated, and practical. The reasons are simple that the needs for the mission demand it- low cost/multi-purpose/low tech- requiring minimal manpower (as talented labor is in short-supply). These are planes that might be adapted for military purpose, but military purpose is of secondary importance. The project's purpose is to rebuild.

There are a couple of streams of thought that you could utilize in justifying or explaining aircraft. I think there are three- the "unlimited Morrow" approach, the "Balance against potential enemies approach" or the "Morrow is a constrained organization" approach. Each reflects different mindsets about how to play the game.

(1) The Morrow Project needs them so acquires them and feels its justified to make the expense in labor and financial capital. Unlimited financial capacity and imagination can take this idea very far. In fact, that logic can go pretty fair to justify anything. My thinking is that the project would do something practical. The bigger your game project, the more likely that it might have jets. Assume the project could spend unlimited amounts, than why not buy spacecraft too or modern satellites. After all those are pretty sophisticated Science and Mars vehicles in the book. Granted those are few in number and far apart, suggesting limits in the scope of the project.

My feeling on this is that the advanced technology is pretty limited by the game's main book. I would be reluctant to go beyond that.

(2) Balancing with adversaries. Sgt has made this argument, but the only real adversary that has air capacity seems to have KFS and they have World War 2 era Thunderbolts. I would be curious to know how many Thunderbolts still remain operational today. In that sense, your choices seem a fair balance.

The down side of this is that if the Project beats KFS (and it probably will) than Morrow Project has now acquired air dominance. Beware Ballooners and every other faction. Sure they might have sidewinders and AAA capacity that might shoot down your planes, but those are fixed and if you have a wild weasel aircraft, maybe you can knock those planes out too. A dictator takes over the Project and can become the king of America, a benevolent (or not so benevolent) dictatorship because it has the capacity of bombing just about any opposition it might face. Cool side of that is that a slave federation or a bunch of former soviet forces with technology 150 years old (and with little residual know-how to service it) may save America from the best intentions (made corrupt by power-hungry leaders) of the Morrow Project. Not sure how Morrow didn't anticipate that possibility- but it might make for a new story line.

(3) The Morrow Project operates under stiff constraints- The Morrow Project is a small group whose mission is primarily rebuilding and redevelopment of a country largely destroyed by nuclear warfare. Delayed from undertaking its mission, it has few people, few resources and significant constraints. If it meets with a powerful enemy, that means it has to find a way to rise to the challenge, perhaps against a foe that has it outmatched in terms of military technology- thus the challenge is high. The goal of this game is not necessarily to make the game cool or easy, but to make it hard and challenging for the players by giving them significant obstacles to overcome.

That doesn't mean that you couldn't incorporate your airplanes into the story, but you would have to think about how. For instance, lets say that the KFS and its aircraft are threatening neighbors with bombing- utilizing air dominance to impose its demands through the threat, and occasional display of coercive capacity. The Project knows of this and has had its team hit by these planes in the past. To put an end to this, it needs to come up with an alternative- perhaps a trap in which the project uses its limited anti-air assets to shoot down the planes. Perhaps a commando raid to destroy the planes (or steal them) from the KFS. Perhaps a quick strike by armed air scouts against the air field to hit the planes while they are still on the ground. Perhaps these planes- meant for quick communication- can be put to service.

Or perhaps there is another group that might help. Perhaps a small group of pilots, largely operating independently or in cooperation with each other, are flying across the country creating a form of postal service between communities. They have taught generations of their children how to maintain the planes (although that knowledge is a bit weak after 150 years). They operate single planes out of bumpy air fields, perhaps the utilize some form of alternative fuel or energy to keep their planes in the air. The planes themselves have seen lots of wear and tear over 150 years, and are held together by bubblegum, rubber bands and prayer as well as craftsman ship and innovation.

Some of those planes might be like those you posted- rather simple, easy to maintain, practical and low cost. Maybe there are others that fit. A hodgepodge collection of ancient airplanes of uncertain maintenance and ability, being put to the test against the KFS's dedicated fighters. That would be kind of fun.

The story might be that the Project has to find a way to enlist these pilots, organized them, and perhaps even arm them to respond to the KFS. This may require some bargaining and perhaps some subterfuge, as well as the creation of potential back-up plans if this craps out. The odds remain against them, but the choice is stark. Either the Project can fashion the alliance of the KFS seizes more towns and imposes its rules.

Honestly, as a player or a director, I would prefer a difficult challenge than resolving the problem through the easy adoption of military tech and all the problems that might come from that. But at the end of the day, its your story. You decide what goes into it. I caution against advanced technology.

Another way of thinking about it comes down to how heavy do you want the military side of the game to dominate the story. Power, or I should say socially organized power, comes in different forms. Military power as social power is fundamentally concentrated and coercive- and its power at its most brutal and blunt. But there are other forms of power- ideological, economic, and political to name of few. Those forms of power operate on different logics. As I see the Morrow Project, military power is deemed essential but secondary to the broader purposes- which are economic, social, political and ideological. The problem of military power is that the consequences of its abuse are high but its application is generally destructive. As Gamer argued a page or two earlier, the goal of the project is to rebuild the country, not to create a more powerful warlord. Again, it's your game. Are you creating a mini-warlord, or are you in the difficult business of rebuilding a society. THe later requires the capacity to rebuild communities, find some ideological purchase, mediate conflicts, build communities- the stuff of the other forms of social power.

[ArmySGT.]

Using that criteria justify the Morrow Projects fielding of:

The MARS One
The Chapparal missile
The TOW Missile
The 81mm Mortar
The M9 flamethrower
40mm grenade launchers
fragmentation handgrenades
M60 machineguns
M240 machineguns
M2 .50cal machineguns
Antitank mines
claymore mines
Antipersonnel mines
Nerve agent

Because they are all in 3rd edition and fielded by the Project.

[welsh]

Using that criteria justify the Morrow Projects fielding of:

The MARS One
The Chapparal missile
The TOW Missile
The 81mm Mortar
The M9 flamethrower
40mm grenade launchers
fragmentation handgrenades
M60 machineguns
M240 machineguns
M2 .50cal machineguns
Antitank mines
claymore mines
Antipersonnel mines
Nerve agent

Because they are all in 3rd edition and fielded by the Project.

In short, they are all problematic. The weapons systems would all be difficult to get in the US by normal legal means. That's not to say that a private company couldn't buy them, but under very strict licensing rules or they could buy them abroad. But large purchases of such weapons- needed to field an army of between 10-50K people would raise serious red flags. Even private military companies will often acquire weapons through the surrogate agency of a sovereign state.

But most of the weapons above a small arms and can be purchased abroad. In certain places around the world, there is a glut on small arms. Some of these weapons however are rather unusual. Morrow One for instance. Other weapons would raise other red flags- nerve agents We see by the administration's willingness to provide TOW missile systems to Syrian insurgents that such transfers draw attention.

But when you talk about advanced fighters you are talking some big ticket items. Those who sell such systems are under significant constraints in how they sell and where those weapons going. Advanced fighter aircraft are prestige items, the prize of a country's arsenal. They don't go to private agencies easily.

I would be concerned about costs- A lightly armored V-150 is significantly less expensive than an advance F5 fighter aircraft, and you can probably do more with the V-150.

Sgt your argument is "If the Morrow says it, than it is possible." I am not disputing that. My argument is "How" I admit that's a question I have with regard to other weapons that the Morrow Project offers to players. To me, that becomes the basis of some rather interesting story telling about the nature of the Morrow Project itself.

A second argument point is "does it make sense for the game." That goes to the issue of game craft. If you want a game that emphasizes the use of military technology in a post-apocalyptic world- ok. But it seems from the game design that the military aspects are secondary to the overall story. This I am pulling form the 4th edition where the authors are justifying "why so many weapons-because it might be a hostile world."

I think there is a choice that needs to be made- is this a game about war making or a game about rebuilding. Arguably, aspects of war and development overlap, but every story needs to show some heirarchy of preferences.

If you argue abundance and warmaking- than anything is possible. The danger is you've set up a bunch of strawmen that are easily knocked down- like world war 2 era Thunderbolts taking on modern F5 aircraft.

If you argue constraint and development - than things are more difficult and challenging, your enemies are harder to fight and require more imagination and innovation, where your scouts are being hunted down by World War 2 era Thunderbolts. I find that a better story.

As for game design and consequence, well history suggests that in regions with little real political infrastructure, weak economies and social conflict- those with military dominance tend to rule and exploit their military power to rule through the use or threat of coercion. Dictatorship becomes the norm, even if originally motivated for benevolent purposes. I would be surprised if the Morrow Project would be able to overcome that temptation. And should it fall to that temptation, than the result is usually a coup within.

If you give your Morrow Project a decisive military edge through superior aircraft, and if you are trying to tell a realistic story, than you have to deal with those implications. Otherwise, its just more wishful thinking.

But it is your story to do with as you will.

[stormlion1]

A lot of equipment the Project has was bought from company's that were also part of the Project itself. CoT members held top jobs in those company's and fudged orders. Probably double billing the US Government or charging extra for foreign orders and then making extra gear and stocking it away. Say the 4th Edition had the Stryker as a usable vehicle. The company that makes them gets an order from the US Government for ten of them, and a bunch of foreign orders for another fifteen. The CoT influenced company that makes the Stryker charges the US Gov't for thirteen and the foreign orders for twenty with the excuse of issues in the plant and rising costs. They all pay because its the only place to get a Stryker. The extra money is put into producing Stryker's for the Project with the excuse there demonstration models or testing models that will be tested to destruction. They might even get a few more out of the plant as well in parts.

[welsh]

There are a variety of ways that Project could get weapon systems, but there are potential challenges for each. A military contract that get fudged means the project is willing to break the law to get its weapon systems. Given the nature of the project, its secrecy, and the potential risks- chances are it is not getting the weapons through illegal channels though. Even a small Morrow Project would still need to do it legally.

(For those interested- the Dogs of War - both the book and movie- talk about the challenge of private militaries getting guns. The film the Wild Geese, never really develop that issue but simply assumes away that the corporate sponsor could do it).

Is the Morrow Project or Morrow Industries a weapons supplier Is it a private military company Perhaps Morrow Industries is a private company whose job it was essentially oversee weapon sales to developing countries or to provision peacekeeping forces in an increasingly hostile world. Perhaps Morrow was hired to purchase military surplus from countries that are going through a process of demilitarizing. Perhaps as suggested in the 4th ed. its in the business of training peacekeepers and armed forces. Or maybe it was hired by the US government in the 1950s with a contract to develop civil defense infrastructure and capacity in the event of a nuclear war.

Do these questions matter Kind of, if you think origins matter, or if you want your characters to deal with the consequences of that history. If so, I suspect the problem the project faces is that they are constrained in their resources and technology more than they'd like to be.

I don't want to create the wrong impression. Sgt has made a strong argument in favor of his F5 and other advanced tech. I can see others making arguments for an A-10. What flavor of advanced warplane do you like

But I can also see a world in which someone has also made a dirigible- a maintained Goodyear Blimp. Imagine a story where, 150 years after a nuclear war, the Goodyear Blimp armed with nerve gas on a mission to bomb a city finds itself in the middle of an air battle with improvised bi-planes that, once upon a time, were crop dusters.

I have made a counter argument. Neither is right or wrong- because what matters is story telling. Does it fit the story As directors you have to decide how much of the manual you want to follow and how much you want to create or change to fit what you think is the story. That story shapes the worldview of the game itself or "what kind of story do you want" mindful of the consequences. You can add weapons and tech or actually reduce it.

My feeling- keep it simple, practical and low-tech- it makes sense for the Project, keeps the challenge to the players high (especially if they have to acquire the assets or form an alliance with those who have the assets), and maintains balance with potential adversaries. But that's because I like a rougher and lower-tech view of a post-apocalypse. Neither position is wrong- just different.

[ArmySGT.]

You misunderstand my intention.

I don't intend to unleash a squadron of F5s into the 150+ years after the WAR timeline.

I intend to flesh out all of the Morrow Project.

To cover all the bases. To have prepared ahead of time a reasonable explanation for the existence and a plausible excuse for why the personnel and equipment is missing.

I am still going to run it with the loss of Prime, the 150+ year over sleep, teams awaken singly. No communications. No other Team. No survivors have even heard of the Project.

As the PCs play out each of the Modules I will bring more and more of the Project online. Depending on how well they do. If they fail then those assets stay dormant. It is kinda like a choose your own adventure book.

In my rendition of the Project. After the events of Lone Star, the KFS sets its eyes on the Republic. Seeing them as weakened by the fight with the Brotherhood, and the oil production vulnerable to takeover makes invasion tempting. The detection of signals from the Morrowsat makes invasion necessary in the eyes of the Rich Five.

Desperately the Republic tries to bring together an air force of their own using any WW2 plane that can be scavenged. The KFS has total superiority in training, condition of the planes, pilots, and ground crews. Republic planes are either shot down or forced to land at a KFS controlled field and seized.

So, in comes some communications, the facility leader at the Projects (censored) in the state of (censored) from Desert Search is ranking enough to know some things. He has sent the Recon unit that woke up his Team in search of Prime.

Your Recon must find the SW air defense and SAR assets.

The Republic is the only entity that is governed on the principles of the U.S. Constitution. The Republic must not fail.