Morrow Aviation Assets

[cosmicfish]

It can take video or still images for assessment and using milimeter wave radar or LIDAR make accurate measurements for assessing areas to rebuild.

I am honestly not even sure if an OH-6 can mount a LITENING pod - the pylons are only rated to carry a couple hundred pounds (I think), and I don't think you can get much of a sensor in a pod that small. Conversely, a UH-60 or V-22 or really anything larger would be able to carry decent-sized sensors AND still carry armament and even personnel!

[cosmicfish]

I find it hard to discuss specific vehicles (especially specialized ones) without the context of the overall inventory. For those advocating the OH-6, what is your vision of the Morrow aerial force How many aircraft of each type, and how are they distributed

For example, I recently tossed together a TOE for my version of TMP. I had a large airbase at Prime Base and 6 much smaller regional airbases. Scattered between these I had 8 MH-53M, 16 MH-60M, 24 MV-22B, 8 C-130J, 12 Twin Otters, and 48 MQ-9 Reapers, for a Project of approximately 50,000 people.

Bear in mind that this was just a first cut, but I thought that was actually quite a lot of aircraft even though I thought it was what the Project really needs. Even still, it runs heavy simply because these aircraft need to fulfill a lot of different roles and would replace the thousands and thousands of aircraft the US has flying at any given time. And even with 68 manned aircraft I don't see the advantage of the OH-6, because pilots are hard to come by and everything the OH-6 can do, a UH-60 or V-22 can do better.

[stormlion1]

I never figured for a large Morrow Air Force but I did plan on it being scattered about. Prime Base itself only having a small number of aircraft. Its C+C, not an airbase. The Regional Bases have the same thing. Few Aircraft. The Main Supply Depots are the aircraft hubs as there the ones getting supply's out and transporting them. The various teams themselves maybe one in a dozen has a helicopter for use and never an aircraft as landing strips will be few and far between.
Say Prime Base and the Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks and one or two private jets each. The Supply Hubs have a dozen C-130's (For supply airdrops), another dozens Blackhawks (for when dropping it out of an airplane cannot happen or to transport MARS teams), and maybe two dozen Little Birds (For Air Support and scouting) and space for scavenged aircraft the project might find and reuse five years after the nukes drop.. And several teams across the US are equipped with Little Birds.

[kato13]

I have 24 A/MH-6s that are to be used during the first phase of recon and then shifted to be be scouting/liason/med-evac/gunship.

They have a few advantages IMO

• Easier to fit into a bolthole
• Lower Maintenance
• Quiet (with fusion engines even more so)
• Civilian airframe
  • Ease of Acquisition
  • Ability to stockpile spare parts without notice.

Other than some small drones, they are my only dispersed aviation assets. The rest being at prime or my 8 regional bases

[cosmicfish]

Prime Base itself only having a small number of aircraft. Its C+C, not an airbase.

I agree with this - I actually have a "national aviation command" under the command of the national command, but I don't have it collocated.

The various teams themselves maybe one in a dozen has a helicopter for use and never an aircraft as landing strips will be few and far between.

How many teams do you have If you have a hundred teams then having 16 part-time helicopter pilots is difficult, if you have a thousand teams then having 166 is almost absurd! There are not that many helicopter pilots out there, expecting to draw a bunch of them into the Project (assuming they would even qualify) is a bit of a stretch, as is training them up from scratch.

Oh, and there are a ton of small airplanes (bush planes) that can land just about anywhere flatish.

Say Prime Base and the Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks and one or two private jets each.

So perhaps 35 Blackhawks And how do you figure jets With fusion power, a propeller airplane or helicopter can stay aloft as long as you can keep someone conscious at the controls, jets require massive amounts of perishable, volatile fuel that the Project could not realistically anticipate replenishing. And why does the Project even need jets

The Supply Hubs have a dozen C-130's (For supply airdrops), another dozens Blackhawks (for when dropping it out of an airplane cannot happen or to transport MARS teams), and maybe two dozen Little Birds (For Air Support and scouting) and space for scavenged aircraft the project might find and reuse five years after the nukes drop.. And several teams across the US are equipped with Little Birds.

Now I'm confused - you said "Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks" and now you say "The Supply Hubs have ... another dozens Blackhawks" - which is it

[cosmicfish]

I have 24 A/MH-6s that are to be used during the first phase of recon and then shifted to be be scouting/liason/med-evac/gunship.

They are terrible in either a med-evac OR gunship role. They were designed as scout helicopters back in the day when the sensor package was the Mk I Eyeball.

They have a few advantages IMO

• Easier to fit into a bolthole
• Lower Maintenance
• Quiet (with fusion engines even more so)
• Civilian airframe
  • Ease of Acquisition
  • Ability to stockpile spare parts without notice.

• There is zero reason for boltholes to all be the same size. Indeed, the variety of team sizes and vehicles combined with environmental factors all but ensures that boltholes are all but unique.
• How much lower maintenance Given that the scaling of maintenance requirements in helicopters is primarily a function of the very same systems that get replaced by fusion in TMP, the difference in maintenance between a UH-60 and OH-6 is primarily going to be in the added mission systems in the former.
• Fusion engines will kill some sound, but the Project's mission would not seem to make aircraft noise a particular issue.
• Civilian airframe
  • If the Project can acquire all the other military assets it has, acquiring a few more helicopters would hardly seem an issue.
  • Many of the spare parts would not be stock anyway, but regardless, the former point still applies - if the Project can get V-150 (or whatever) parts and scads of 20mm ammo, then this would seem a minor point. On top of that, civilian parts do not generally reach MILSPEC performance even when they come from MILSPEC suppliers - relying on civilian parts is asking for something to fail when the feces hit the giant fan over your head.

Other than some small drones, they are my only dispersed aviation assets.

Small drones are unsexy, but they make tremendous sense for field teams. They require minimal skill to use, risk little in their operation, and are perfectly acceptable for most tactical needs.

[kato13]

So perhaps 35 Blackhawks And how do you figure jets With fusion power, a propeller airplane or helicopter can stay aloft as long as you can keep someone conscious at the controls, jets require massive amounts of perishable, volatile fuel that the Project could not realistically anticipate replenishing. And why does the Project even need jets

Most modern civilian "jets" use turbofan engines which could be converted fusion as the propulsion comes mostly from the fans and not from heated exhaust. If you are ok with a 600 mph top speed fusion turbo fans should be fine.

[stormlion1]

I agree with this - I actually have a "national aviation command" under the command of the national command, but I don't have it collocated.

I figure Prime Base was the Main HQ, the Pentagon of the project. At most it has a small runway and a few helicopter pads for getting around. Even the pilots there have other jobs rather than being pilots alone.

How many teams do you have If you have a hundred teams then having 16 part-time helicopter pilots is difficult, if you have a thousand teams then having 166 is almost absurd! There are not that many helicopter pilots out there, expecting to draw a bunch of them into the Project (assuming they would even qualify) is a bit of a stretch, as is training them up from scratch.

Never figured it out, just figured the Project at some point found and trained pilots and crews and froze them. Many of the Team Members can also be cross trained as pilots and Loadmasters and such as well. When I was in the Air Force I was cross trained as a Loadmaster on the side even though I was in the Security Police. A little cross training never hurt anyone.

Oh, and there are a ton of small airplanes (bush planes) that can land just about anywhere flatish.

True, but the idea is to keep numbers down. And the more and different kinds of aircraft there are, the longer the logistics chain. I can see them in service in area's though where C-130's cannot operate or at the furthest corners of the logistics chain. They would be the exception, not the rule.

So perhaps 35 Blackhawks And how do you figure jets With fusion power, a propeller airplane or helicopter can stay aloft as long as you can keep someone conscious at the controls, jets require massive amounts of perishable, volatile fuel that the Project could not realistically anticipate replenishing. And why does the Project even need jets

Very few jets, and mostly private ones for moving higher ups around. They wouldn't see much use early on but only when the rebuilding requires someone of import to be there. By that point fuel supplies can be found or they just don't fly or they have Bruce Morrows lovely reactors installed.

Now I'm confused - you said "Regional Hubs have maybe five Blackhawks" and now you say "The Supply Hubs have ... another dozens Blackhawks" - which is it

I separate the two. Regional Hubs are Regional Command Bases that report to Prime and collect info and dispatch orders. They can in the event of failure replace Prime Bases functions in part. They also exist as a point for extra personnel to congregate to then be dispatched to under strength Teams in the field. There Mini-Prime Bases in charge of the various regions. I kind of figure at most a compliment of maybe a 100 personnel. And even the aircraft there wouldn't have assigned pilots but in fact have a pilot for every two aircraft. Less stress on the aircraft themselves and can be replaced if there is a breakdown. They can also be borrowed by supply hubs for there operations if needed. Call it a Ready Reserve.
The Supply Hubs are outright Supply Bases and Airfields. They exist to be the stockpiled supply's and are the Teams Grocery Store. They like the various Recon Teams, MARS Teams, Medical Teams, etc report to there Regional Hubs who in turn report to Prime Base.

[kato13]

They are terrible in either a med-evac OR gunship role. They were designed as scout helicopters back in the day when the sensor package was the Mk I Eyeball.

• There is zero reason for boltholes to all be the same size. Indeed, the variety of team sizes and vehicles combined with environmental factors all but ensures that boltholes are all but unique.
• How much lower maintenance Given that the scaling of maintenance requirements in helicopters is primarily a function of the very same systems that get replaced by fusion in TMP, the difference in maintenance between a UH-60 and OH-6 is primarily going to be in the added mission systems in the former.
• Fusion engines will kill some sound, but the Project's mission would not seem to make aircraft noise a particular issue.
• Civilian airframe
  • If the Project can acquire all the other military assets it has, acquiring a few more helicopters would hardly seem an issue.
  • Many of the spare parts would not be stock anyway, but regardless, the former point still applies - if the Project can get V-150 (or whatever) parts and scads of 20mm ammo, then this would seem a minor point. On top of that, civilian parts do not generally reach MILSPEC performance even when they come from MILSPEC suppliers - relying on civilian parts is asking for something to fail when the feces hit the giant fan over your head.

Small drones are unsexy, but they make tremendous sense for field teams. They require minimal skill to use, risk little in their operation, and are perfectly acceptable for most tactical needs.

Drones are possible now, and if I plan a modern game with a modern wardate I use them everywhere (down to a 40mm disposable one fired from an M203). I still like to plan for an earlier wardate as well.

Duningan's how to make war has the OH-6 beating the UH-60 in Attack rating, Sortie rate and Average Availability. Personally I would go with the UH-1 over the UH-60 as there are literally thousands of retired airframes that could be brought into the program.

My project plans to use the stealth (sound) factors of the AH-6 for placement of initial recon teams. As far as my bolt holes go, yes all are generally custom, but I expected my aircraft boltholes to be placed in abandoned railway tunnels, The dimensions of the OH-6 would allow for tighter turning (not flying of course) inside of such a small space.

Yes I admit the OH-6 would not be as good as a UH-60 (or UH-1) for Medevac, but it could certainly perform the role as well as the OH-1 (as made famous by M*A*S*H) did. It did perform the role in Vietnam, so I am guessing it maybe saved a life or two.

[cosmicfish]

Most modern civilian "jets" use turbofan engines which could be converted fusion as the propulsion comes mostly from the fans and not from heated exhaust. If you are ok with a 600 mph top speed fusion turbo fans should be fine.

If you take away the fuel, what you have left is a ducted fan, not a jet - literally. And as odd as it may sound, that jet, even when dominated by fan thrust, changes everything. I started out in aerospace engineering, and the physics of fan propulsion says that ducted fans work best in a pusher configuration and at low speed, as at high speed duct drag dominates. There is a reason you don't really see ducted fan aircraft that don't have that jet running down the center.

And even if you could, why would Morrow want the added complexity Are they really in that much of a hurry

[stormlion1]

I'm using equipment I'm familiar with. C-130's were prime movers of gear and are old dependable aircraft with an easy to maintain airframe. Blackhawks have a relatively good safety record and can pull plenty of gear and personnel around. Huey's would be good too but I know nothing about there operations or repair. Just that there are plenty of them around. I mean if you look there everywhere. The Little Birds are on my list because of there size and multi-purpose nature. They can act as gunships, transports, small scale supply, and medevac. And most importantly there small. They can be buried in a Bolthole and pulled out when needed. larger helicopters will require a full on hanger, something that in the original 5-year timeframe can be destroyed, damaged by weather or human disaster, or just to conspicuous.

[cosmicfish]

I figure Prime Base was the Main HQ, the Pentagon of the project. At most it has a small runway and a few helicopter pads for getting around.

I agree 100%.

Even the pilots there have other jobs rather than being pilots alone.

I disagree about 97%. I work with pilots, some very very good ones. Pilots who are not pilots alone are the ones who tend to crash, especially if called upon to do anything tricky. Piloting requires constant practice, especially for helicopters.

Never figured it out, just figured the Project at some point found and trained pilots and crews and froze them. Many of the Team Members can also be cross trained as pilots and Loadmasters and such as well. When I was in the Air Force I was cross trained as a Loadmaster on the side even though I was in the Security Police. A little cross training never hurt anyone.

Being a loadmaster is not the same as being a pilot. Cross-training is indeed good, but pilots don't grow on trees and the time required to learn and maintain that skill means that any other work will be relatively minor.

True, but the idea is to keep numbers down. And the more and different kinds of aircraft there are, the longer the logistics chain. I can see them in service in area's though where C-130's cannot operate or at the furthest corners of the logistics chain. They would be the exception, not the rule.

I never said you had to have multiple varieties of bush plane, I am just saying that it is easier and cheaper to have bush planes and bush pilots than even the cheapest and easiest helicopters and their pilots. Seriously, in the exact situations you describe, there are bush planes handling the vast bulk of the work.

Very few jets, and mostly private ones for moving higher ups around. They wouldn't see much use early on but only when the rebuilding requires someone of import to be there. By that point fuel supplies can be found or they just don't fly or they have Bruce Morrows lovely reactors installed.

I just commented on the issue of fusion-powered turbofans (i.e., they can't exist), and a jet you can only use occasionally seems a hard trade against a prop-plane you can use constantly.

I separate the two. Regional Hubs are Regional Command Bases that report to Prime and collect info and dispatch orders. They can in the event of failure replace Prime Bases functions in part.

Alright, I have something similar.

And even the aircraft there wouldn't have assigned pilots but in fact have a pilot for every two aircraft. Less stress on the aircraft themselves and can be replaced if there is a breakdown.

Doesn't seem particularly efficient. Most military and civilian operations reverse that ratio, having more pilots than aircraft. Throw in fusion reactors and you all but need it!

So do a little math, and list your complete Morrow Air Force. Until you have an actual inventory it is impossible to say whether or not any given aircraft makes sense.

[cosmicfish]

Duningan's how to make war has the OH-6 beating the UH-60 in Attack rating, Sortie rate and Average Availability.

I don't have Dunnigan's, but I know that the kind of reduction you are describing is very difficult in any real application. I also think that a good chunk of that changes anyway with fusion power.

Personally I would go with the UH-1 over the UH-60 as there are literally thousands of retired airframes that could be brought into the program.

There are reasons why those airframes are retired. Metal fatigue is a real issue, you know.

My project plans to use the stealth (sound) factors of the AH-6 for placement of initial recon teams.

You really think that is adequate reason It's a nice perk, but I can't see a trade study weighting that very highly.

As far as my bolt holes go, yes all are generally custom, but I expected my aircraft boltholes to be placed in abandoned railway tunnels, The dimensions of the OH-6 would allow for tighter turning (not flying of course) inside of such a small space.

Boltholes are meant to be abandoned, so unless you are actually talking about using the tunnels as hangers (not a good idea, btw), then you can stow the rotors and fit anything but the heavy-lift helos in there. UH-60's can be ferried in a C-130, and that hold is 40' long by 9' wide by 8' high. There is no US railroad gauge that is so small.

Yes I admit the OH-6 would not be as good as a UH-60 (or UH-1) for Medevac, but it could certainly perform the role as well as the OH-1 (as made famous by M*A*S*H) did. It did perform the role in Vietnam, so I am guessing it maybe saved a life or two.

The standards in Korea and Vietnam were a lot different than they are now. There is no room for a medic, minimal room for any life-support equipment (or even first aid gear!), and no capacity for adding any kind of protective systems (i.e., guns) when you are using the hauling capacity for medevac. Seriously, there is a reason no one willingly uses these in this role anymore - it's not medevac, it's just giving the victim a nicer view as he dies.

[cosmicfish]

I'm using equipment I'm familiar with. C-130's were prime movers of gear and are old dependable aircraft with an easy to maintain airframe. Blackhawks have a relatively good safety record and can pull plenty of gear and personnel around.

I agree with all of this.

Huey's would be good too but I know nothing about there operations or repair. Just that there are plenty of them around. I mean if you look there everywhere.

Huey's are like buying cheap used cars - they're cheap and easy to find, but there's a reason they're so cheap to begin with and you really shouldn't plan on them lasting long. Heck, the newest ones are 30 years old! And the reason they are around is because they are being used for relatively gentle work by people with no better options - you can make an aircraft last a long time if you do that, but it's really just spreading the lifespan by injecting idleness. I don't know about you, but I expect ALL MPV's to be in near-constant use!

The Little Birds are on my list because of there size and multi-purpose nature. They can act as gunships, transports, small scale supply, and medevac. And most importantly there small. They can be buried in a Bolthole and pulled out when needed. larger helicopters will require a full on hanger, something that in the original 5-year timeframe can be destroyed, damaged by weather or human disaster, or just to conspicuous.

Again, I don't understand this. Little Birds are NOT utility helicopters, for good reason - they aren't good multi-taskers! They are specialists that fill very specific roles as part of a massive collection of aircraft. And I think the bolthole/hanger divide is more than a little false - botlholes are for storage, hangers are for operation, and realistically all aircraft will require some level of access to both, and the most efficient approaches do not particularly limit the use of larger aircraft.

[Askold]

The way I see it, spare parts are going to be an issue with aircraft.

Assuming best case scenario where the Morrow teams can find intact factories (either built with stuff the Morrow project had hidden in bunkers or simply salvageable factories from before the war) aircraft parts still won't be priority number 1. Even worse if you have several types of aircraft and you would need highly specialized parts.

Worst case scenario where everything outside has been destroyed and the Morrow project has to do with the meager stuff they had in their facilities... Spare parts will run out soon. How long can you fly a helicopter without proper maintenance Or even an airplane.

You can keep a car functional for years (although some spare parts will be required) and in that time you can: Recon the area, establish contact with the survivors, start educating the survivors (if they have lost knowledge of modern technology) and even rebuilding the society. Who knows, you could even manage to keep the cars in working condition until you can make more parts and fuel for them. (Though you might have to store the fancy fusion powered stuff for a while and switch back to bio-diesel until a few decades have passed.)

With aircraft... Well, you can achieve things that would otherwise be impossible but they will be nearly one-shot devices. "Do you have a battle where air-support is absolutely vital Do you need to pick up someone/something from a location that cannot be accessed by foot Yeah, we can do that. ...Once."