Morrow Aviation Assets

[ArmySGT.]

A lot of equipment the Project has was bought from company's that were also part of the Project itself. CoT members held top jobs in those company's and fudged orders.

EXACTLY.

Morrow Industries in a large corporation. It doesn't do just one thing. You come to them for anything major and they draft a plan. You agree to the plan and pay the fee, then they assemble the experts, hire the workers, and build your project.

Like ESCO international or Halliburton. You want a small city built in a hostile country Ok, it will cost this much, in this amount of time, with additional costs for personnel or material lost to enemy activity.

Morrow Industries needs a V-150 The "cover" to build the factory, by the materials, and hire the works comes from contracts to build V-150s for the Philippines, Mexico, or Saudi Arabia. During those builds additional models are built for demonstrations, destruction testing, and product improvement testing. After the build the production line runs what is called an "overrun". The defense industry does this all the time. The workers are paid already so keep the machines running. The company then markets the over runs at a cheaper price to law enforcement agencies and to smaller overseas nations to bring them on a customers, get them invested into the set up.

That those marked for testing to destruction or those on a freight bound for a client in Asia don't make it. .gov doesn't even notice.

This also assumes that there are production lines that are completely Project, with all Project members running the equipment, making a production run of one item or several similar items. When you can have your own fusion plant and be completely removed from the Grid, you can do alot.

This has drifted pretty far from airplanes though.

[stormlion1]

Would the Project aid the Republic That's the real question. The Projects purpose is to rebuild after a Nuclear War, not set up a new government or support a new government. Sure the easiest thing to do would be to aid the Republic because there the closest to the Constitution but most teams will be looking at there original orders first. And I hate to say it, they will follow those orders lacking communication from Prime. And it hurts even more that there so spread out and so out of contact with each other and that there are so many teams that have never woken up. In many ways the regional bases should have taken up the slack if they awoke as well and Prime was out of contact. I can see the Project having aircraft, but limited to small scout aircraft they might attach a few guns too and the bulk of the fleet being cargo aircraft based out of Prime and Regional Bases and maybe a few Supply bases but that's about it. The Project wasn't in the job of aiding the US Government fight the Russians or Cubans or whoever, but aiding the population in rebuilding.

[ArmySGT.]

In short, they are all problematic. The weapons systems would all be difficult to get in the US by normal legal means. That's not to say that a private company couldn't buy them, but under very strict licensing rules or they could buy them abroad. But large purchases of such weapons- needed to field an army of between 10-50K people would raise serious red flags. Even private military companies will often acquire weapons through the surrogate agency of a sovereign state.
But most of the weapons above a small arms and can be purchased abroad. In certain places around the world, there is a glut on small arms. Some of these weapons however are rather unusual. Morrow One for instance. Other weapons would raise other red flags- nerve agents We see by the administration's willingness to provide TOW missile systems to Syrian insurgents that such transfers draw attention.
But when you talk about advanced fighters you are talking some big ticket items. Those who sell such systems are under significant constraints in how they sell and where those weapons going. Advanced fighter aircraft are prestige items, the prize of a country's arsenal. They don't go to private agencies easily.
I would be concerned about costs- A lightly armored V-150 is significantly less expensive than an advance F5 fighter aircraft, and you can probably do more with the V-150.

The Project has them because Morrow Industries and their partners in the Council of Tomorrow are the manufacturers and distributors of them. The Project with exceptions like MARS One, Science One, HAAM suits, and fusion plants uses off the shelf technologies. This stuff has had the research and development paid for, the investment in the manufacturing capability, and the investment in training workers paid for by large government contracts. After the government contract is fulfilled the production line just runs for a bit longer. This or the assembly line is broken down and sold as scrap by oeManufacturing! A wholly owned subsidiary of the Coucil of Tomorrow! over to oeRecyclers! A wholly owned subsidiary of Morrow Industries. A percentage is melted down in front of government auditior then it is out on the town for drinks and lapdances. The rest of the percentage is re-installed in another plant and the process restarted to make more Browing HP-35s, or hundreds of resist weave uniforms, or thousands of pounds of RDX to make various munitions.
Government contracts paid all the initial startup costs and most of the production costs.

Sgt your argument is "If the Morrow says it, than it is possible." I am not disputing that. My argument is "How" I admit that's a question I have with regard to other weapons that the Morrow Project offers to players. To me, that becomes the basis of some rather interesting story telling about the nature of the Morrow Project itself.

The Morrow Project has been building and planning since the Cuban Missile crisis for a War that eventually happens 9 November 1989. That is a lot of time to stock pile equipment, train personnel, and hide them.

A second argument point is "does it make sense for the game." That goes to the issue of game craft. If you want a game that emphasizes the use of military technology in a post-apocalyptic world- ok. But it seems from the game design that the military aspects are secondary to the overall story. This I am pulling form the 4th edition where the authors are justifying "why so many weapons-because it might be a hostile world."

It is a hostile world. In conflict there is adventure.
If you run a campaign emphasizing the rebuilding your players are going to be almighty bored and probably abandon your game for something else.

Nobody wants to make saving throws for crop rotation, or skill rolls on ox plowing 40 acres.

I think there is a choice that needs to be made- is this a game about war making or a game about rebuilding. Arguably, aspects of war and development overlap, but every story needs to show some heirarchy of preferences.

The players have the obligation to make the world safe for the rebuilders. To be the Heroes (or Don Quixote!) and stand up for what is Right. They have to recruit the NPCs to do the rebuilding work. Even in my campaigns the Morrow Project Civil engineering teams are all NPCs. Making skill rolls on bridge building, and skill rolls to make a function village power grid are not going to make a great night gaming.

If you argue abundance and warmaking- than anything is possible. The danger is you've set up a bunch of strawmen that are easily knocked down- like world war 2 era Thunderbolts taking on modern F5 aircraft.
If you argue constraint and development - than things are more difficult and challenging, your enemies are harder to fight and require more imagination and innovation, where your scouts are being hunted down by World War 2 era Thunderbolts. I find that a better story.

Nope, what ever I give I can take away. The KFS uses Thunderbolts. The KFS uses their own pre-War manufacturing base and education of very loyal subjects (the 2000) to build from scratch more Thunderbolts. This doesnt mean the KFS could not field F-16s within 12 months it would take to train the pilots. There can be a cache of F-16s mothballed by the KFS , simply because it is not a necessary expense to fly them if Thunderbolts will do the job. The KFS may also be sitting on Theater air defense systems and advanced radar systems like Patriot and phased array systems. They dont field them because they dont have to. To do so, without a credible threat is to tip your potential enemies off.

See even if I give the Morrow Project, ten, twenty, two hundred F-5s I can still rebalance the threat and take those F-5s away or make them useless.

As for game design and consequence, well history suggests that in regions with little real political infrastructure, weak economies and social conflict- those with military dominance tend to rule and exploit their military power to rule through the use or threat of coercion. Dictatorship becomes the norm, even if originally motivated for benevolent purposes. I would be surprised if the Morrow Project would be able to overcome that temptation. And should it fall to that temptation, than the result is usually a coup within.

Nope, that is built into the game canon. Project personnel are thoroughly psychologically screened to pick out potential warlords or rogues. If that fails the PD could invoke the Phoenix Project and still remove that threat. This is if Bruce (the Wander Warlock) doesnt deal with the matter quietly.

If you give your Morrow Project a decisive military edge through superior aircraft, and if you are trying to tell a realistic story, than you have to deal with those implications. Otherwise, its just more wishful thinking.

I am fleshing out all the missing data from what the Project was intended to be and how it intended to function had the mission launched in the planned for 3-5 years after the war. I would expect there to be significant threats to the Project from rogue elements of the Armed Force of the U. S., Canada, and Mexico, in addition to actual Soviet threats from over the North Pole, and from Central America or Cuba.

But it is your story to do with as you will.

As always everyones input is welcome and adds new facets for everyone to use or discard as best benefits them.

[kato13]

As always everyones input is welcome and adds new facets for everyone to use or discard as best benefits them.

My general philosophy in life as well as gaming follows the words of my namesake.

Absorb what is useful,
Discard what is not,
Add what is uniquely your own

Everyone needs to be exposed to it first before they can decide if it is useful for them. That is why I encourage almost all threads even if I personally don't find it particularly useful for my gaming scenarios.

[ArmySGT.]

Would the Project aid the Republic That's the real question.

I think the Project would.
The Republic is a representative government that takes care of its citizens. Everything that is lacking everywhere else in the current state of affairs 150+ years later.

Sure makes things easier when there is something to work with.

The Projects purpose is to rebuild after a Nuclear War, not set up a new government or support a new government.

Well from third edition it is to rebuild civilization. The Project doesnt state specifically that re-building the U.S. government or re-establishing the U.S. Constitution is a goal. Only to preserve and nurture civilization.
The 4th edition may well be different of course.

Sure the easiest thing to do would be to aid the Republic because there the closest to the Constitution but most teams will be looking at there original orders first. And I hate to say it, they will follow those orders lacking communication from Prime. And it hurts even more that there so spread out and so out of contact with each other and that there are so many teams that have never woken up.

Depends upon Operation Damocles and Operation Lonestar.
I intend to run one meta campaign where the PCs roll up characters for each of the different modules, then play them in order! The events in each can change the ground rules in the next. There is potential to start a massive conflict between Maxwells Militia and the Warriors of Krell, with the KFS playing both sides in Operation Lucifer alone.

In many ways the regional bases should have taken up the slack if they awoke as well and Prime was out of contact.

I agree. It remains to be seen though how much damage the Warriors of Krell have done to the Project. The have by canon captured several Project bases. Personally I think the Project is totally compromised in the canon Krell territory and any Teams that awaken there have been overlooked by chance. Someone within Krell surely can use the Base systems to pinpoint boltholes and caches subordinate to that regional base.

I can see the Project having aircraft, but limited to small scout aircraft they might attach a few guns too and the bulk of the fleet being cargo aircraft based out of Prime and Regional Bases and maybe a few Supply bases but that's about it. The Project wasn't in the job of aiding the US Government fight the Russians or Cubans or whoever, but aiding the population in rebuilding.

I dont think the Project would be flying against the Russians or the Cubans either. That is not to say that the Russians or the Cubans wouldnt see a the Project as a legitimate military target. The Project would have the F-5s to protect Project assets and programs.

[ArmySGT.]

Now, shifting focus from Air Superiority to the need for Reconnaissance.

I am of two minds on this one. A need for a local air recon and a continent spanning recon. The Morrowsat with its 1970s technology wouldn't be capable of the resolution we have become accustomed to in 2014. Still resolution down to 100 meters is still damned useful after apocalypse to do damage assessments.

However, there is still the need for a frequent look over that can be managed be a Regional base or Combined Group leader. Some targets need to be looked over from more than one and and periodically over the span of 24 hours. Satellites make passes but, cannot loiter over one spot unless posted geosynchronous. There have been several light aircraft already mentioned that would fulfill a local role. What could the Project secretly procure and store with the intent to use at Warday + 5 years A U-2

[bobcat]

the way i've been seeing MP is that five years after an apocalyptic war there won't be much of an air threat to project assets. that said there will be a significant ground threat and the need to rapidly mover equipment and personnel from one location to another.(such as rotating specialized teams between sites where they are needed) thus i find the idea that a small flight of helicopters at each regional command post would be essential.

to that end i find this to be an ideal TOE for each such wing:
4x OH6 scout helicopters
8x AH6 gunships with 2.75" rockets and 7.62mm miniguns
4x UH1 transport helicopters
2x CH47 transport helicopters
2x S64 skycrane helicopters

this allows regional commanders to rabidly move equipment personnel and supplies throughout his AO without sacrificing security and allowing for close support in the event of troops in contact. additional spare parts would be kept in boltholes and supply caches for the regional command point and all helicopters would have been converted to operate with the same fusion power plant as every other project vehicle. naturally outfitting these with the fusion power plant would reduce maintenance requirements(weekly rather than daily with the usual pre-post flight PMCS) and lighten the weight taken up by fuel and a conventional engine.

i also see a need for STOL of VTOL cargo aircraft at prime base and the backup prime base to resupply these regional command bases the C130 would be ideal in this role with similar modifications as it can easily be equipped for parachute assisted unloading to minimize vulnerable ground time in a potentially hostile environment.

[welsh]

Bobcat- I am a bit worried about game balance with your close support. That seems like a lot of helicopters to me, and especially the attack helicopters. Might be a better balance if you relied on lightly armed scouts rather than dedicated attack helicopters.

I am still a bit worried about the amount of man-hours it would take to service an air-wing, but that's true of virtually any air-wing- and so I would think simpler and less sophisticated is probably better.

I am looking at 4th Ed rules and they list costs of vehicles (p246 in the hard copy). Costs are measured by human labor.

Heavy Air transport costs (50+ tons)- 75 hours per ton
Medium - (20+ tons) - 135 Hours per ton
Light (<5 tons)- 500 H per ton.

Combat aircraft are listed at about 500,000 hours of labor.

But I am still looking at the book and trying to learn how they do these calculations.
They calculated that a labor generates about 2000 hours of labor a year.

To service a combat aircraft- and I am not sure if there is much difference here between fixed or rotary wing, will probably costs you the labor of 250 laborers for a year to buy. Service of these vehicles probably costs a fair amount too- although I doubt it is the purchase price, but perhaps 1/3-2/3 the costs This would be especially costly given the lack of an advanced infrastructure for parts and limits on human capital (as I would expect a very small proportion of the population have the skills and training).

I would also add that there seems to be some discussion these days about cutting costs of aircraft by mixing use of manned and unmanned (drones).

[kato13]

I would probably end up with a similar number of aircraft as bobcat at my regional bases (more cargo less combat), but I would expect that only 4-6 would be active at any time.

These assets would be extremely useful, but also extremely difficult to replace. Even without combat and being very careful with deployment, expecting a 25% annual attrition rate would not be unrealistic. Because of this I would want lots of spares.

[welsh]

Yes, I would guess lots of stored parts as well as a shop to recreate parts, but I would also think that the aircraft choices should be duel use- so that aircraft for combat, recon, transport or construction can be exchanged. Blackhawks or Hueys Ideally you can mount an M60 in a doorway and perhaps mount a gun or rocket pod.

Also, this would simplify the training for crews as well as service personnel. There might be a trade-off in utility and specialization, but savings in human labor and post-war service challenges.

I would also guess it would be easier to acquire military surplus or those widely used- and thus more available potential crew members.

[LBraden]

That's why I was thinking myself of the Boston Mk I (RAF) as it's the A-20 Havoc with a large glass nose, great for Reccy, Photo Reccy, SAR and if need be, slap 6x 500lb's on it, or 4x 500lb's internally and some rocket pods and make someone have a very bad morning.

[bobcat]

for those that want a jet for the morrow project.

http://www.smart-1.us/aircraft.htm

highly agile, compact, fast, and bond even used it.

[kato13]

I have been reading about how future planes might have electric engines and was surpirsed by the following

Unlike the early days of jet aircraft, today's airliners only get a fraction of their push from jet thrust. Most of the propulsion is provided by the giant fan at the front of the engine, which accelerates air just like a propeller.

These high bypass ratio fans are powered by the jets, and there's no reason they couldn't be powered by electricity instead.

Source

http://www.wired.com/2013/07/eads-ethrust-hybrid-airliner/

I always thought that the project would be limited to prop aircraft when using fusion power, but from this I would assume that most subsonic jets would have the potential for conversion as well.

[mmartin798]

This is why it could be possible for a fusion powered F-22, as it too uses a high-bypass turbofan. But that assumes the fusion plant + electric motor weight is about the same as the fuel and jet turbine. That and you need to support the maintenance of the rest of the aircraft, which in itself is no small feat.

[kato13]

Well anything without true Jet propulsion would be limited to sub mach speeds (around 80% IIRC). That makes me think more of Cargo and Coin aircraft, but the A-10 is subsonic .