4th Economics 101

[ArmySGT.]

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This is what I mean..... the Base costs and the Input costs are useless in the initial determination of what is produced by how many for how much time.

Except... that it keeps getting referenced because you have to determine man hours to determine the number of laborers necessary for the production.

What gets me...... your not going to have a village that hasn't paid the base cost to build the agriculture.... they would have starved and died or disbanded.

[RandyT0001]

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

[ArmySGT.]

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

Posted such on the Morrow Project Facebook page.... maybe you and some others could do the same and we can get Chris Garland and Rob O'Connor to address this.

[ArmySGT.]

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

[mmartin798]

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

[mmartin798]

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

I wouldn't say you never need it. You just don't need it to start. Assume your TL E settlement has some bandits or a band of mercenaries that come through, take some food and then raze half the farm land. To rebuild those farm lands, you need to take the base cost and multiply by the lands lost to determine how many man hours to rebuild. You might have to reduce your iron output for a while to get the crops back. So the base cost has use, but not for building your initial settlement.

[ArmySGT.]

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

Could you demonstrate in some examples I am trying the process over completely with a Tech E homestead of 10 persons.... smaller more manageable calculations.

[ArmySGT.]

Farmstead.... Single family plus farm hands.... Tech level E (late steam) (Pg 208).... 10 persons.
Domain equals 0.5km2 per person 10*0.5 = 5Km2
This family homestead comprises 5Km2 of land supporting 10 persons and livestock.

Labor Pool Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
10*0.47= 4.7, 10*0.50=5, 10*0.03= 0.3
5 adults, and five children.
Labor year = 2000 hours for each adult. 5*2000 = 10,000 labor hours. Tech level E modifier for this is 4. 10000*4=40000
The farmstead with implements and decent knowledge averages 40,000 man hours per year. (Pg 236)
Division of labor (Pg 237)....... Tech Level E.... Agriculture 11-25%, Mining/Manufacturing/Construction 25%, Distribution 20%, other Services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.25=1.25, 5*0.20=1, 5*0.32 = 1.6 = 5.1 Labors..... Problem.... One of the children is now farming.
One farmer, one builder, one delivery, one caretaker accounted for, fifth person We will see if we need another adult in another job if the system will yield results.
Feeding one person equals 300Kg equivalent of wheat(Pg 237). 10x300kg equals 3000 kgs to feed the homestead. (Pg 237). People need 50 kilograms of meat and 150 liters of milk (dairy products) per year.
10*50=500Kg and 10*150=1500L ........ though this is not explained if this is in addition to the 300 Kg of wheat or substitutes for all or in part....... I can't determine from the text.
So the Homestead needs 3000kgs of Wheat, 500 Kgs of Meat, and 1500L of milk. Per year to feed the inhabitants adequately, I think.
Confusing bit..... Agricultural Sector table (Pg 237)... Tech level E.... Time per Hectare for a Tech level E farmer is 80(25) 80 hours per hectare and a farmer does 25 hectares in one labor year.

Except later in text farmers are farming 46 hectares for 1840 hours... baffled... is 25 hectares a limit that is then ignored Is this meant to mean that at Tech Level E a farmer can work 25 hectares in 80 hours
Next is yield..... Tech level E is 1300kg per hectare and supports 4.3 persons on that hectare (302.3kgs per person). Why does the persons per hectare matter It isn't used in any of the following calculations.
3000Kg/1300kg = 2.3 Hectares needed for just wheat. Domain equals 5KM2 or 500 hectares..... so space is covered.
3000kgs/1300kg = 2.3 hectares.... 2.3 = 160hours ( our farmer has it easy!)
On this table is featured the Base Cost and the Input cost..... and no reason why you need to calculate this.
Live stock and Aquaculture... (Pg 238)
You have an average yield per hectare.... Then a modifier..... to me ..... these contradict each other..
I can use the average and get one sum or the modifier and get another sum.....
So is it 180 liter per hectare with an animal using 2-10 hectares for pasture; or is the modifier of whatever the tech level produces..... Tech Level E is 1300Kg per hectare... 1/12 of this is 108kg or liter of milk with an animal using 2-10 hectares..... I am assuming (I know!) the 2 hectares is a milk goat and 10 hectares is a milk cow.
So which one
Then, there is the corn equivalent ( corn modifier is 2) at Tech level E this would be 2600Kg of corn per hectare. ...... so this is the corn needed to feed animals in grain to have them produce...... Does this come out of the farmers output or does there need to be another farmer..... See where the farmers production limit has produced something confusing
So... Um milk cows. Do I have one or two
The homestead needs 1500L of milk for a year.... This could mean 1500/180=8.3 hectares.... Or 13.8 hectares... Does the modifier 1/12 affect the manhours Is it 80 (Tech E) divided by 1/12 Or is it still 80 hours per hectare I think it would still be the full time requirement... so. 664 hours for 8.3 hectares or 1104 hours for 13.8 hectares. (farmer is a little busier (824 hours or 1264 hours)
Meat. The Homestead requires 500kgs of meat per year to feed the 10 persons.
Beef = 25kg average or 1/88 the equivalent of wheat per hectare.. 1300*(1/88) or 1300*0.011 or 14.3kg per hectare...... again which is it 500kgs / 25kg per hectare equals 20 hectares of pastured beef or 500/14.3kg per hectare equals 34.9 hectares. 80hrs*20= 1600 and 80*34.9=2792 (our farmers is at either at 2424 labor hours or 4056 hours)

But, wait the animals need grain... milk needs 1kg of corn per liter produced and beef needs 13 kgs of corn per kilo of meat. So the homestead must produce 1500kg of corn for milk cows and 6500 kgs of corn for beef cattle. At tech level E.... 1300kg per hectare with a x2 modifier for corn. Or 2600kgs per hectare. 1500 + 6500 = 8000 kgs of corn required. 8000/2600= 3.07 hectares or 245.6 labor hours.
( the farmer is now at 2669.6 or 4301.6 labor hours.)

So we need 1.33 farmers or 2.15 farmers..... to feed the Home stead.

That would mean that this Homestead would have 2 farmer, one house wife, one ranch hand fixing everything, and one ranch hand in Delivery.

[mmartin798]

Sure. I just realized I quoted some wrong number for the meat anyway, so I will correct that here.

I will assume no exceptional attributes, so this is where we start:

Tech Level (TL): E
Population: 10
Volatile: 50%
Extrovert: 50%
Compassion: 50%
Discipline: 50%
Curious: 50%
Organization: 50%

The available labor pool is 2/3 of 50% of 10, or 3 people. At 2000 man-hours per year, we have 6000 hours available.

To feed 10 people, we need 3000kg of wheat and 500kg of meat.

At TL E, each hectare yields 1300kg of wheat per year and takes 80 hours per hectare to work and harvest. So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

Let's assume they keep chickens, since they take up less space than beef. We assume they only eat 10% of the flock each year. So to get the 500kg of meat, we need 500/115 hectare of land, or 4.35 hectares for their coop and "grazing" area. They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

So to feed the settlement, we need to supply 841 man-hours, which is still one farmer. We now add the inputs for one person in the ag sector at TL E, which is 2000. The total man-hours to feed this settlement is 2841.

[mmartin798]

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

[ArmySGT.]

So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours

[ArmySGT.]

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

The livestock table uses hectares for pasture on some animals and square meters for other animals. another area they should have stayed with one unit.

[mmartin798]

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours

You are quite correct. So that gives us... 916 man-hours and we will need 2000 man-hours of inputs since that is still one farmer.

[ArmySGT.]

They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock

[mmartin798]

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock

No, this is another area where the text is confusing. Let me rephrase things to make it clearer. Just like explosives have an RE value where C4 is 1, so too does crop yield have a Yield Effectiveness (YE) value where wheat is 1. Replace crop multiplier with YE and the calculations are the same. 1 of wheat = 0.5 of corn = 100 of cocaine.

So if I need x hectares for 50kg of wheat, I need 0.5x hectares for 50kg of corn and 100x hectares for 50kg of cocaine. I hope that is clearer.