4th Economics 101

[mmartin798]

Yes, I already have that happening in the Labor and Land summary on the second page. So far my spreadsheet modifies the labor pool numbers with the attributes and does the agriculture calculations. I should be able to get the extraction numbers working by tomorrow. Once done, I will release this as a tool to the group.

I am not making a click a button and generate a settlement tool. But it should let you easily figure out what your group can and cannot do with the people they have.

I do what opinions. When I do the calculations and come up with fractional workers, like the 1.38 in the last example, should it round up to 2 or would there be someone who would spend half their time helping on the farm It would be easy enough to not round and assume there are people that have other chores.

[ArmySGT.]

Yes, I already have that happening in the Labor and Land summary on the second page. So far my spreadsheet modifies the labor pool numbers with the attributes and does the agriculture calculations. I should be able to get the extraction numbers working by tomorrow. Once done, I will release this as a tool to the group.

I am not making a click a button and generate a settlement tool. But it should let you easily figure out what your group can and cannot do with the people they have.

I do what opinions. When I do the calculations and come up with fractional workers, like the 1.38 in the last example, should it round up to 2 or would there be someone who would spend half their time helping on the farm It would be easy enough to not round and assume there are people that have other chores.

I have so far been rounding fractional number up to a whole. I can't help thinking that the task is necessary.

[ArmySGT.]

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these

[ArmySGT.]

WOW! I just bought the 4thE....oh boy I am in trouble.

This much detail, way too cool. Now I have to rebuild all of east Texas with this. :P

Texas gets lots of attention with Lonestar...

How about the SouthEast United States There are no canon publications for that region. Someone on the ground that can flesh out the real locations and plausible outcomes.

What happens to Florida the coast lines and the swamps with a global cooling and a 20 meter drop in sea level

[ArmySGT.]

I think it is awesome that this game inspires an in depth discussion of the economics system rather than a discussion along the lines of "The HP-35 is a stupid pistol, everyone knows the SOCOM .45 is the only pistol a real man would use. I totally kicked ass with it in Black Ops 3...."

Heh, we have lots of those too.

[ArmySGT.]

What do you think of this suggestion

Milk goats

Dairy goat 75L for 0.5Kg equivalent of corn.

[ArmySGT.]

Homestead. (20 Persons)
Tech Level G (Multiplier 2)
Agriculture 20-50+% = 4
Mining, Manufacturing,
and Construction 18-25& =1
Distribution 9-17% =1
Other Services 20+% =1
Labor Pool 7
300Kg of Wheat per person, per year. 20x300Kg=6000Kg or equivalents
50kg of meat per person, per year. 20x50Kg= 1000Kg
150L of milk per person, per year. 20x150L= 3000L

Farming Tech level G
1000 hrs per Hectare
Farmer can harvest 2 Hectare per labor year (2000hrs)
Yield is 750Kg per Hectare

6000/750= 8 hectares of wheat. 8/2=4 farmers
Switch to Potatoes and corn= 4000/750=8 /5 = 1.6 Hectare. 2000/750= 2.66 /2 = 1.33 hectares
1.6 + 1.33= 2.93 hectares 2.93x1000 = 2930 labor hours or 3 farmers.

Lets add a vegetable garden Cabbage, carrots, onions, tomatoes, etc.
Potatoes 2000kg / 750kg = 2.66 hectares /5 = 0.53 hectares
Corn 2000kg /750 =2.66 hectares /2 = 1.33 hectares
Vegetables 2000kg /750 =2.66 hectares /7 = 0.38 hectares
0.53+1.33+0.38 = 2.24 hectares or 2240 labor hours.

More vegetables, less corn.
Corn 1000kg /750kg = 1.33 hectares /2 = 0.665 hectares
Potatoes 2000kg / 750kg = 2.66 hectares /5 = 0.53 hectares
Vegetables 3000kg /750 =4 hectares /7 = 0.57 hectares
0.665+0.53+0.57= 1.750 hectares or 1 farmer.

Live stock
Milk yield is 180 liter for 1Kg of corn. 3000L/180L= 16.6 hectares /2 = 8.3 hectares.
180Kg /750Kg = 0.24 Hectares /2 corn = 0.12 hectares
8.3+0.12 = 842 labor hours or 1 farmer (The dairyman also helps grow corn)

Meat. Only poultry is going to work if at all.
20x50Kg= 1000Kg to feed for one year.
2.5*1000*10= 25000kg of corn /750= 33.3 hectare (3330 labor hours)
20*1000/115= 173.9 hectares (3330+1739=5069 labor hours) 5 farmers.

All seven in the labor pool are fixated on food production.

[mmartin798]

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

[ArmySGT.]

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

Ok, I was wondering what percentage they were talking about...I though that the text was talking about the labor distribution percentage.

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

[mmartin798]

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

Yes, though I get the feeling that those are average values for those groups and that there may be some variability in them. For instance, not all townspeople will be straight 50% across all traits everywhere.

[mmartin798]

What do you think of this suggestion

Milk goats

Dairy goat 75L for 0.5Kg equivalent of corn.

I haven't been ignoring this, just doing some research. I did find data to support the bovine dairy numbers. In tropical regions with cow density at 1 per hectare grazing on pretty poor grass give between 120-300 Kg of milk per year (Milk is typically measured by weight wholesale), using 180 seems low but not total unreasonable. My data on goat production gives me about 1248 Kg per goat, but this is for goats in Oklahoma eating a high nutrition diet. Also, I am not sure how many goats per hectare is reasonable.

So I am still at odds what sounds good here.

[ArmySGT.]

I haven't been ignoring this, just doing some research. I did find data to support the bovine dairy numbers. In tropical regions with cow density at 1 per hectare grazing on pretty poor grass give between 120-300 Kg of milk per year (Milk is typically measured by weight wholesale), using 180 seems low but not total unreasonable. My data on goat production gives me about 1248 Kg per goat, but this is for goats in Oklahoma eating a high nutrition diet. Also, I am not sure how many goats per hectare is reasonable.

So I am still at odds what sounds good here.

http://extension.psu.edu/business/ag-alternatives/livestock/sheep-and-goats/dairy-goat-production

http://www.milkproduction.com/Global/PDFs/Bestmanagementpracticesfordairygoatfarmers.pdf

[mmartin798]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease

[ArmySGT.]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease

The less feed can account for goats are browsers and prefer leaves to grass stems.

Cows should be putting out more but, are dependent on grain for max yields. So maybe the 180 is a middle figure assuming more pasture and less grain

Though why force you to grow corn BTW cattle eat turnips and cabbage too.... also there is no in game factor for sillage, a bi product of raising corn which should reduce consumption by 1/3 of grain.

For cabbage and turnips you do (or should) grate the vegetable like you would for coleslaw...... there was even a foot powered tool that spun like a grinding wheel and you fed in cabbages from the side like a deli slicer.

[ArmySGT.]

Atleast Extraction goes together pretty simply....

Assuming you have any laborers... pick something that is reasonable for your location.

Laborers x Tech level output x material conversion factor.

Our tech level G homestead is struggling with everyone working night and day just to eat. The tech level D homestead make enough food that they have laborers engaged in other things.

So how about ..... Wood cutters supplying river boats with firewood for the steam boilers.....

2x5x0.125=1.25 or 625Kg of firewood per day.

Edit..... 500kg = a cubic meter.. The conversion factor for this is 1/8 or one eighth..... that just seems really, really low.... given saws, axes, mauls, and wedges have been around since antiquity. People fell, cut, split, and stack multiple cords in a day with unpowered tools. A cord of wood is 8 feet long by 4 feet wide by 4 feet high.. or 2.44m x 1.22m x 1.22m .... A rick is half a cord or 8 long x 2 by 2.