YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[mpipes]

Olefin,

Hope you continue contributing. Really want to see new material.

I've always seen Olefin's comments as very constructive and passionate. Never out and out arrogant. And I have always seen the comments as a valuable contribution to the fan base.

As for all the back biting, cattiness, and plain arrogance as to the sacredness of canon that many seem to have....we all need to KNOCK IT OFF!!

Take all the comments tweaking things for what it is....a person's views of their version.

[Olefin]

"I think you probably took more than your fair share of criticism today on this topic, but then you do like to argue things don't you"

No actually I like to discuss things - but looks like discussion is the last thing this board wants.

And yes canon is what GDW publishes - which includes what I have had published as canon recently - and what I hope to get more of published one day if I can muster the interest to do so anymore.

And if you guys had actually read what I posted you would have seen that the canon I have the issue with is not the 2000 canon - its the 2300AD one.

And RN7 - there is more than enough material in the canon to show why the Mexican invasion succeeded. But you miss the point of what I was saying about the alternate fan canon

You dont need a huge increase in the Mexican Army to succeed in the invasion that occurred in 1998. They could have done it with what they had already - which includes either the real life AMX-VCI or the canon VAB

But what I am saying is that the chances of them holding it for any length of time especially with what is going on in Red Star Lone Star and HW and bringing to life the 300 year Mexican occupation of the American Southwest and southern California is completely unrealistic - meaning I agree with you totally

and if the board was one that actually encouraged discussion and not "my fair share of criticism" I might feel free to go on with this thread and others - but right now that is not the environment on this board.

[Olefin]

Olefin,

Hope you continue contributing. Really want to see new material.

I've always seen Olefin's comments as very constructive and passionate. Never out and out arrogant. And I have always seen the comments as a valuable contribution to the fan base.

As for all the back biting, cattiness, and plain arrogance as to the sacredness of canon that many seem to have....we all need to KNOCK IT OFF!!

Take all the comments tweaking things for what it is....a person's views of their version.

Thank you very much for saying that. I definitely appreciate hearing that.

[Raellus]

Final Warning

All, if there are any more uncivil or destructive (as opposed to constructive) posts in this thread, it will be locked. Please, take a step back, a few deep breaths, and if you still feel agitated with other posters here, maybe avoid this thread. I don't think "winning" an argument is worth the diminution of this community.

Thank you.

The Mods

[Olefin]

Constructive post

I was thinking about where Mexico could get vehicles from as alternatives to the AMX-VCI and the BDX (assume the Belgians only sold them a few and then war clouds stopped any further transfers) and I was looking at my copy of the RDF

Not sure if these were mentioned before (and I cant see the Mexican Sourcebook at work so I apologize if they are in there already) but there is one place Mexico could get armored vehicles that would fit right in their force structure and they would be effective vehicles for an invasion - and could even get them after the war broke out

i.e. Brazil - EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu - both are wheeled vehicles and both are described for both V1 and V2 (so that makes it easy to use them in the game) - and fits right in with the canon as well (i.e. wheeled APC and wheeled Armored Car) for either V1 or V2 (i.e. could be delivered pre-war or after war start even with the V2 Brazil Argentina war because it happens in 1998 if I remember right)

and Brazil might have even restarted production to sell them to the Chinese and then when China got nuked had vehicles ready to sell and no customer - and there is Mexico nearby

and there are countries in Latin America already operating them so there would even be Spanish language manuals and maintenance documents for them (versus trying to figure out a manual written in French tucked into an old AMX-VCI)

[Raellus]

I like that idea.

[Olefin]

I was remember what Red Star Lone Star said i.e. that the Mexicans were equipped almost universally with either wheeled APC's or wheeled armored cars - and those two vehicles immediately came to mind.

And you could easily use them elsewhere and just say that the units that were in Texas didnt have those vehicles issued to them - i.e. the Texas Mexican units are only a fraction of the Mexican Army not the whole thing after all

[Webstral]

Given the state of the game and the community, I think everyone welcomes enthusiasm. That much said, consistency in communication goes a long way towards setting expectations.

frankly if anyone loves and encourages discussion its me - as long as it discussion -

And RN - frankly you can keep your opinions of whether or not I like fan canon or canon to yourself.

Picking a story and sticking with it will help everyone involved make informed decisions about interacting with the other [few] remaining fans.

[Olefin]

There are lots of fan here and elsewhere still. Otherwise no one would have bought either my book or Raellus's book. I have been totally surprised and so has Marc by the strong positive reaction to them and the desire for more new releases.

And I got the hint - every post made in the past few hours has been totally to the forum guidelines and will continue to be that way.

[RN7]

Thought I'd have a go at what U.S. ground forces would be in the southwest in 2000

Part 1. Major U.S. Army and Marine units in the American southwest

The south-western theatre cover the U.S. states of Arizona, California, Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Nevada, Oklahoma, Texas and Utah, and also by default western Louisiana. Before the start of the Twilight War the following U.S. ground forces were based in this theatre.

1st Cavalry Division: Based in Texas, shipped to Europe in November 1996
2nd Armored Division: Reformed in Texas in 1995, shipped to November 1996
3rd Armored Division: Based in Texas, shipped to Europe October 1996
4th Infantry Division (Mechanized): Reformed in Colorado in 1996, shipped to Europe in October 1996
5th Infantry Division (Mechanised): Based in Louisiana, shipped to Europe December 1996
7th Infantry Division (Light): Based in California, shipped to Korea in January 1997
8th Infantry Division (Mechanized): Based in Colorado, shipped to Europe February 1997
6th Air Cavalry Combat Brigade: Based in Texas, shipped to Saudi Arabia in March 1997
75th Field Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
212th Field Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
214th Field Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
6th Air Defence Artillery Brigade. Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely still in Oklahoma
11th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
31st Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
69th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Based in Texas, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
89th Military Police Brigade: Based in Texas, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
36th Engineer Brigade: Based in Texas, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment: Based in Texas, shipped to Europe in November 1996 but left heavy equipment at Fort Bliss, Texas
10th Special Forces Group: Based in Colorado, location unknown but likely in Europe. Possibly some units still in Colorado
1st Marine Division: Based in California, shipped to Saudi Arabia in March 1997


During the Twilight War the following units were raised in the southwest.

44th Armored Division. National Guard division formed in Texas in February 1997, shipped to Europe in May 1997
49th Armored Division: All Texas National Guard division formed in Texas in November 1996. Oklahoma
40th Infantry Division (Mechanised) (two brigades only): All California National Guard division formed in Oregon in July 1996. California
91st Infantry Division (Light): Army Reserve division formed in California in July 1998. California
98th Infantry Division (Light) (2nd Brigade only): Army Reserve division formed in Oklahoma in July 1998. 2nd Brigade in Louisiana
69th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised): Kansas National Guard brigade attached to 35th Mechanised Division. Europe
256th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised): Louisiana National Guard brigade attached to 5th Mechanised Division. Europe
45th Infantry Brigade: Oklahoma National Guard brigade activated as part of 45th Infantry Division in Arkansas in January 1997. Korea
45th Field Artillery Brigade: Oklahoma National Guard brigade. Location unknown but likely still in Oklahoma
65th Field Artillery Brigade: Utah National Guard brigade. Location unknown but likely still in Utah
153rd Field Artillery Brigade: Arizona National Guard brigade: Location unknown but likely still in southwest
169th Field Artillery Brigade: Colorado National Guard brigade: Location unknown but likely still in Colorado
111th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: New Mexico National Guard brigade, location unknown but likely still in southwest
49th Military Police Brigade: California National Guard brigade formed in August 1996. California
221st Military Police Brigade: Army Reserve brigade formed in California in July 1996. California
225th Engineer Brigade: Louisiana National Guard brigade, location unknown but likely still in Louisiana
420th Engineer Brigade: Army Reserve brigade based in Texas. Location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
19th Special Forces Group: Utah National Guard. Location unknown but likely in Korea and Asia. Possibly some units still in southwest
Cadet Brigade: Formed in January 1998 from USAF academy in Colorado. Colorado
The School Brigade: Former army training unit. Formed in Texas in 1998. Oklahoma
4th Marine Division: Marine Reserve division based in Louisiana. Formed in October 1996 and shipped to Korea
6th Marine Division: Marine Reserve division based in California. Formed in November 1997 and shipped to Korea


During the Twilight War the following units were sent to the southwest

46th Infantry Division: National Guard division formed in Florida in March 1997. California
85th Infantry Division (Light) (1st Brigade only): Army Reserve division formed in Chicago in July 1998. Louisiana
95th Infantry Division (Light): Army Reserve division formed in Michigan in July 1998. Oklahoma
100th Infantry Division (Light): Army Reserve division formed in Kentucky in July 1998. Colorado


Major U.S. ground forces still in the American south-western theatre in 2000
49th Armored Division: Oklahoma
40th Infantry Division (Mechanised): California (two brigades)
46th Infantry Division: California
85th Infantry Division (Light): Louisiana (1st Brigade only)
91st Infantry Division (Light): California
95th Infantry Division (Light): Oklahoma
98th Infantry Division (Light): Louisiana (2nd Brigade only)
100th Infantry Division (Light): Colorado
10th Special Forces Group: Possibly some units in Colorado
19th Special Forces Group: Possibly some units in Utah
45th Field Artillery Brigade: Oklahoma
65th Field Artillery Brigade: Utah
153rd Field Artillery Brigade: Possibly in California/Nevada
169th Field Artillery Brigade: Colorado
6th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Oklahoma
111th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Possibly in Colorado/New Mexico
49th Military Police Brigade: California
221st Military Police Brigade: California
225th Engineer Brigade: Louisiana
Cadet Brigade: Colorado
School Brigade: Oklahoma

[Olefin]

Good list for sure - but keep in mind many of those units had been very roughly handled especially the light infantry divisions that faced the Mexicans (and the 46th really didnt fare well either)- I see the US military forces that were in the Southwest by 2000 sort of like what the German Army was in 1945 - still a lot of divisions left but a lot of them were basically formations in name only - more groupings of survivors versus effective units

The 91st for instance - which started out per the US Army Vehicle Guide with 9 foot infantry battalions and three towed 105mm artillery battalions - had only 900 men left and was reduced to just the 3rd Brigade and the division was described as virtually annihilated - meaning morale was probably big time in the toilet

[mpipes]

One thing to keep in mind, none of the canon discusses airpower at all. Canon implies in several places that at least some aircraft were still active even in 2000. In 1998, there would still be considerable supplies of fuel for aircraft. Using Paul's suggestion for F-20As and other aircraft notations, as well as historic combat squadrons in 1990, I put at least 10 squadrons of F-20As, two squadrons of F-4Ds, one squadron of F-4E, a F-105 squadron (training), six F-16ADF squadrons, two squadrons of F-4Ss, one squadron of F-14s (training), one squadron of F-18Cs and F-18Es (training), three squadrons of F-100s, at least three squadrons of A-10s, an A-37 squadron (training), at least three squadrons of B-52s, two A-7Fs squadrons, a B-1A wing, and a B-2A wing as available.

And guess where at least two B61 nuclear weapons plus a couple of ALCMs went

I see the Mexican invasion as a major blunder. The Mexican army was/is primarily a defensive force with logistics tied to moving supplies over limited distances....a couple of hundred miles at most. Even with a buildup, it would be defensive in orientation with limited logistic capability optimized for supply over short distances. They would be invading over a front hundreds of miles long in the face of several hundred American aircraft supported by AWACs. Even with the buildup of aircraft I contemplate, there are no AWACs, and the US gains air superiority fairly quickly. Logistics targets are heavily targeted by aircraft and nukes, and the offensive runs out of steam as their combat units run out of supplies and they have to garrison every town they capture.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's an interesting little bit of history that could be used to allow Soviet infiltration of Mexican society & government (and in real life maybe it was There doesn't seem to be much info about it on the net).
There was modest sized Russian community living in Mexico beginning in the 1920s. All of the families involved were Russian jews escaping persecution and the original 50 families established a colony in Guadeloupe. The Mexican government had maintained fairly good relations with the USSR since that time and still has good relations with the Russian government of today.

It's possible that the early Soviet government infilitrated the community to keep a watch on them, how likely that was is obviously open to debate as is how effective such surveillance might have been.
What little I've read about them indicates that the wider world generally didn't pay the Russians in Mexico much, if any, attention. Particularly as they chose to locate themselves in a fairly isolated area that didn't attract non-Russian Mexicans until the late 1950s-early 1960s. However this isolation may have also rendered them as less threatening to the Communists as well maybe I really haven't delved deeply into this so I'm simply speculating here.

During the Cold War era it's also possible that the Soviets monitored & infiltrated these Mexican Russians. Again, how likely that would have been and how much influence they might have tried to exercise over them is open to debate. But it could provide an opening in the history of Mexico for efforts to reconcile some of the more "far out" elements of T2k Mexican and Soviet history perhaps

[kato13]

There was modest sized Russian community living in Mexico beginning in the 1920s. All of the families involved were Russian jews escaping persecution and the original 50 families established a colony in Guadeloupe.

8<---- Snipped ---->8

During the Cold War era it's also possible that the Soviets monitored & infiltrated these Mexican Russians. Again, how likely that would have been and how much influence they might have tried to exercise over them is open to debate. But it could provide an opening in the history of Mexico for efforts to reconcile some of the more "far out" elements of T2k Mexican and Soviet history perhaps

It is an interesting theory but I grew up in an area which was the focus of Russian Jewish Immigration during the time frame in question (23000 in the years from 1969 -1989). There was serious HATRED of the USSR among Russian Jews I was friends with (even more so among their parents). If a red dawn scenario happened (The 14 year old me seriously considered the possibility) I expected them to fight harder than most natural born US citizens.


A couple of sleeper agents could have been snuck in of course, but as a whole I expect the USSR would get little sympathy among Russian Jews in North America

Edit
Another little tidbit from my childhood. I also knew quite a few Lithuanian immigrants to the us. Every year many of the boys 13 to 18 that I knew would go away to Lithuanian camp for 2 to 4 weeks in the summer. While part of it was about keeping the heritage strong they spent some time doing drills and training in what I can only describe as partisan preparation. Minor explosive training, sentry take-downs, paint ball to train cover teams, SEER training, etc. Yeah it was mostly fun, but there was some serious expectation among a few that if the balloon went up they were going to go back to fight for their homeland's freedom. Could be the background of a US NPC with some useful language skills that went special forces.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thanks for the insight Kato, some interesting info there particularly the part about Lithuanian Americans. Even without the PC/NPC going into USSF it still makes an interesting character background.

What you've mentioned is the same sort of thing that's being going on in Poland recently with their worries about Russia. Not that that's particularly useful for a T2k game (more useful for a 2013 game) but it's interesting to see the continuation of the Russians as a "bogieman".

So what chance do you think there would be for a successful Soviet infiltration of the Russian-Mexican population Not that they probably need to do it anyway, the Soviet relationship with Mexico was always pretty friendly most of the time but it makes for some interesting speculation.


Edit: Just been reading about the assassination of Trotsky when he was living in Mexico, Stalin certainly seems to have spared no expense trying to get Trotsky killed. Apparently the NKVD set up three different networks of agents to accomplish the task in which they finally succeeded in August 1940. Notable was the use of Spanish communist Ramon Mercader. So I'm now wondering how extensive the Soviet spy network was in Mexico during the rest of the Cold War.