YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[Raellus]

@Olefin: I like your idea of up-gunned Stuart tanks. They would give the Mexican Army a bit of an advantage against the armor-poor U.S. forces in CONUS without being overpowering (a .50 HMG firing AP rounds could still kill a Stuart). It also has a certain exotic factor that I like. Add those up-gunned Stuarts to the Brazilian wheeled APCs and you have a formidable- but not too formidable- AFV force to lend punch and mobility to the MA invasion force. I haven't made up my mind yet, but I almost like that idea better than the idea of transfers of French and/or Belgian AFVs. Plus, it doesn't mess with the continuing Cold War alternate history of the v1.0 timeline.

@Web: Your eloquent and well-reasoned treatise on comparative air-power would fit really well in my In Defense of the Red Army thread. Would you mind if I copied most of it over there (attributed to you, of course)

[Raellus]

It may have been mentioned before, but have any of you considered the West German-designed, Argentinian-made TAM as a candidate for Mexican MBT of the Twilight War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanque_Argentino_Mediano

I would classify it more as a medium tank than a true MBT (at least compared to its contemporaries) but it's definitely got more hitting power than a Stuart. Argentina was shopping it around in the 1980s but didn't get any buyers. Still, if the Mexicans made an offer in the early 1990s, I'm sure cash-strapped Argentina would have reopened production lines. And I think that the Mexicans historically had an APC built on a similar, German-designed chasis, so there could be parts compatibility there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedena-Henschel_HWK-11

[Olefin]

@Olefin: I like your idea of up-gunned Stuart tanks. They would give the Mexican Army a bit of an advantage against the armor-poor U.S. forces in CONUS without being overpowering (a .50 HMG firing AP rounds could still kill a Stuart). It also has a certain exotic factor that I like. Add those up-gunned Stuarts to the Brazilian wheeled APCs and you have a formidable- but not too formidable- AFV force to lend punch and mobility to the MA invasion force. I haven't made up my mind yet, but I almost like that idea better than the idea of transfers of French and/or Belgian AFVs. Plus, it doesn't mess with the continuing Cold War alternate history of the v1.0 timeline.

@Web: Your eloquent and well-reasoned treatise on comparative air-power would fit really well in my In Defense of the Red Army thread. Would you mind if I copied most of it over there (attributed to you, of course)

I also think that the upgunned Stuarts have that Mad Max kind of tank idea that fits in well with a post-apocalyptic game - i.e. its like the kind of tank that Tank Girl would have had (especially since the one she had in the movie was a supposedly upgunned Stuart with a 105mm cannon on it)

and it sure adds surprise - "hey Sarge isnt that a Stuart"
"Yup but that sure as heck isnt a 37 on her. Never seem anything like that. What the heck is she armed with The Mexicans actually think an old Stuart can do us any harm"

Followed by laughing and a then a loud boom - and even a louder boom when the 90mm round blows the M113 that is parked behind them apart.

[Rainbow Six]

What are the chances of Mexico buying tanks from the United States in the early 90's Would the US potentially sell something like surplus M47's or M48's to the Mexicans Or maybe the CG Stingray

Just a thought...

[Olefin]

Actually the Stingray was the first tank that came to mind - i.e. they were looking for buyers big time - but not sure they would allow them to be sold to Mexico

[Webstral]

@Web: Your eloquent and well-reasoned treatise on comparative air-power would fit really well in my In Defense of the Red Army thread. Would you mind if I copied most of it over there (attributed to you, of course)

It's there to be used, sir.

[Raellus]

What are the chances of Mexico buying tanks from the United States in the early 90's Would the US potentially sell something like surplus M47's or M48's to the Mexicans Or maybe the CG Stingray

Just a thought...

That's a cool twist, and certainly thickens the fog of war, but, personally, I'd like to take every opportunity to incorporate uncommon weapons and equipment into the T2KU. You just don't see up-gunned Stuarts, Argentinian TAMs, and Brazilian wheeled AFVs in any of the standard T2K settings.

[Draq]

That's a cool twist, and certainly thickens the fog of war, but, personally, I'd like to take every opportunity to incorporate uncommon weapons and equipment into the T2KU. You just don't see up-gunned Stuarts, Argentinian TAMs, and Brazilian wheeled AFVs in any of the standard T2K settings.

Any and every Frankenstein vehicle, and patch work moth-ball vehicle upgrade. It just wouldn't be t2k otherwise.

[Olefin]

That's a cool twist, and certainly thickens the fog of war, but, personally, I'd like to take every opportunity to incorporate uncommon weapons and equipment into the T2KU. You just don't see up-gunned Stuarts, Argentinian TAMs, and Brazilian wheeled AFVs in any of the standard T2K settings.

All of them are good ideas for Mexico - I especially like the up-gunned Stuarts and the Brazilian AFV's - and considering they already have 40+ Stuarts its the perfect fit for their Army

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Olefin here's something else for you to have a peek at, as mentioned by Raellus, Argentina did produce some of its own armour but they also had a large quantity of tanks that were surplus to requirements after they got the TAM into service.

While they probably tried to dispose of them in the normal manner they didn't succeed and they were still in Argentina as of 2002. These tanks are Shermans, they had about 450 initially and then upgraded 250 of them with more modern engines and other systems but also with... a 105mm main gun.

They remained in service until 1994, probably too late for a version 1 timeline but kinda about the right time for v2.
This article gives a lot more detail https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war...tell-us.html/3

Now that would be a hell of a surprise, the X1 light tanks and the Sherman Repotenciado mediums as the basis for a battle group. That 105mm would give the Mexicans some hitting power without the unbelievable totally Soviet armoured force proposed by City of Angels.

[Olefin]

I will take a look for sure

FYI for those wanting to see stats for the X1A and X1A-2 tanks Paul already has them on his site

http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_lcv/brazilian_tlcv.htm

[RN7]

What are the chances of Mexico buying tanks from the United States in the early 90's Would the US potentially sell something like surplus M47's or M48's to the Mexicans Or maybe the CG Stingray

Just a thought...

The U.S. sort of didn't sell much in the way of heavy or modern equipment to Latin American countries because most of them have unstable political histories. They might use them against their neighbours or even U.S. forces if they had to intervene.

They did sell the M48 and M60 tanks to Brazil, but not to any other Latin American country except for one M60 to Argentina for evaluation. I think the only reason they sold tanks to Brazil was because other Latin American countries were buying West European and Soviet tanks, or in Argentina's case building the German designed TAM medium tank.

However they might sell the Stingray to Latin America including Mexico. It wasn't really a full sized tank and was designed for export. It was a modern design with a decent gun but had weak armour, and it would be only a limited threat to U.S. armoured forces.

[RN7]

Actually if I had to go with a tank buy for Mexico I would be looking at the AMX-13 - much lighter than than the AMX-30 and perfect for Mexico's road and rail network - and still has a decent punch

I would have no issue with Mexico using the AMX-13. It was largely obsolete in French service due to the demanding combat environment that would be expected in a European War. But it would suit Mexican defence priorities before the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

While they probably tried to dispose of them in the normal manner they didn't succeed and they were still in Argentina as of 2002. These tanks are Shermans, they had about 450 initially and then upgraded 250 of them with more modern engines and other systems but also with... a 105mm main gun.

They remained in service until 1994, probably too late for a version 1 timeline but kinda about the right time for v2.

Good find! I was unaware that Argentina had any number of modernized Shermans. I really like this idea, and I think it would work just as well for the v1.0 timeline.

So, as I envision it, by the time of the invasion, Mexico's pre-existing army AFV fleet would have been bolstered by:

Ex-Argentinian Up-gunned Shermans*
Ex-Brazilian X1A & X1A-2 light tanks
Newer make Brazilian EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu wheeled AFVs

They could probably acquire these on the cheap, prior to, or even after the Soviets go to war with the PRC.

This would improve the MA's firepower, helping to explain their impressive initial gains, without making them unstoppable or un-ejectable.

Now, if we could just come to a consensus on how the Mexican Army gets its hands on some Soviet armor...

*Turboswede's MASB already had the MA using up-gunned Shermans but I can't recall the provenance- I think they may have been acquired from the Israelis.

[Raellus]

Here are some sites that I found when I was running a brief New Mexico-based T2K PbP a few months back. The first site has pics of several IRL Mexican AFVs. The second has lists of said, including the numbers fielded (I can't vouch for the accuracy of the figures, but it's a start).

https://aw.my.com/en/forum/showthread.php48830-Mexican-Armored-Vehicles

http://www.armyrecognition.com/mexico_mexican_army_land_ground_forces_uk/mexico_mexican_army_land_ground_forces_military_equipment_armoured_vehicle_pictures_information_desc.html