YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[Raellus]

Again, just use civie trucks!

Regarding logistics, yes, the Mexican army was never flush with trucks. However, especially after NAFTA, the civilian 18-wheeler fleet ballooned. Thousands of 18-wheelers originating in Mexico cross the border into the U.S. every day, carrying everything from fresh produce to consumer electronics (and sometimes contraband). In the event of a war with the U.S.A. (i.e. T2K), the Mexican military could requisition those thousands of civilian cargo carries to cart supplies for the invasion force. It's really just that simple. Problem solved.

[ArmySGT.]

The Mexican army suffers from a lack of logistical support vehicles since is an army of defense not an expeditionary army, I checked Janes at work and the army currently has 571 logistics vehicles to support a Army of 271,000 most theses trucks are Chevrolet Kodiak, M35 2-1/2 ton cargo truck, Mercedes-Benz "Kurzhauber" (Brazilian-built) and possible the Freightliner Business Class M2 which are short to medium range. So using this trucks for long range would be hard give that each truck would be over loaded with materials. I could'nt find any info on wreckers or refuelers both of which you need for any logistical train.

The Mexican-Armed Forces uses commercially available truxks. Jane's reports on military equipment. There are fuelers using the same chassis as a dump truxk as would be available to any construction company.
Down at unit levels, they use Dodge 2500s and Ford F250s like the U.S. Once used Chevy Blazers (CUCV).

Also how much war stocks would mexico have on hand, the Mexico army in the 1990 has lots of equipment from Europe and the US. So I don't see them getting a lot from anyone one the shooting starts in Europe. Ammo might be an issue too.

Mexico produces their munitions at home for their small arms, 20mm, 90mm, 106mm, 105mm (arty). I haven't found anything that suggests they produce missiles of any sort. As well as their mortars in 60mm, 81mm, 107mm, and 120mm. I am unsure of the Naval munitions (Gearing xlass DD) though that likely would be the case. Missiles is probably more to do with licenses, than ability. Mexico produces electronic locally.

Given that this is very difficult to track down. The SEDENA (Mexican Defense Department) doesn't give out information as a rule. I have been through several Mexican websites for their own military enthusiasts and modellers. The M3A1, for example, 30 of these plus 15 M5A1s were reieved in 1947. I have a black and white photo of them on parade in 1982 ( unsure) and any recent photos are only of those made into monuments at gates. The M8A1 Gun Motor Carriage has turned up in two different photos with either a desert paint or a woodland digital pattern paint job, new tracks, and road wheels. The M8 Greyhounds appear on parade rearmed with the 20x139mm RH202 (seems single belt) that is produced under licenses in Mexico, even with a KPV mahinegun in one. With new paint new tires. The motor has to be replaced, with what I don't know.

I have a mashed together .pdf trying to keep it all straight.

[ArmySGT.]

The Mexican army suffers from a lack of logistical support vehicles since is an army of defense not an expeditionary army, I checked Janes at work and the army currently has 571 logistics vehicles to support a Army of 271,000 most theses trucks are Chevrolet Kodiak, M35 2-1/2 ton cargo truck, Mercedes-Benz "Kurzhauber" (Brazilian-built) and possible the Freightliner Business Class M2 which are short to medium range. So using this trucks for long range would be hard give that each truck would be over loaded with materials. I could'nt find any info on wreckers or refuelers both of which you need for any logistical train.

Also how much war stocks would mexico have on hand, the Mexico army in the 1990 has lots of equipment from Europe and the US. So I don't see them getting a lot from anyone one the shooting starts in Europe. Ammo might be an issue too.

There is 3 of these M32 chencha (M4 conversions) Armored Recovery Vehicles.
http://fotos.miarroba.es/fo/2978/1C4...1C45CEB84C.jpg

They have a 8V92T Detroit Diesel now instead of the old radial.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

ArmySGT. I have a vague recollection that the Mexican M8 Greyhounds were fitted with a commercial truck engine to replace the old motor.
I will have to check my books because I can't remember where I saw that info and obviously I can't be certain it's accurate.

[Olefin]

The Mexican-Armed Forces uses commercially available truxks. Jane's reports on military equipment. There are fuelers using the same chassis as a dump truxk as would be available to any construction company.
Down at unit levels, they use Dodge 2500s and Ford F250s like the U.S. Once used Chevy Blazers (CUCV).

Mexico produces their munitions at home for their small arms, 20mm, 90mm, 106mm, 105mm (arty). I haven't found anything that suggests they produce missiles of any sort. As well as their mortars in 60mm, 81mm, 107mm, and 120mm. I am unsure of the Naval munitions (Gearing xlass DD) though that likely would be the case. Missiles is probably more to do with licenses, than ability. Mexico produces electronic locally.

Given that this is very difficult to track down. The SEDENA (Mexican Defense Department) doesn't give out information as a rule. I have been through several Mexican websites for their own military enthusiasts and modellers. The M3A1, for example, 30 of these plus 15 M5A1s were reieved in 1947. I have a black and white photo of them on parade in 1982 ( unsure) and any recent photos are only of those made into monuments at gates. The M8A1 Gun Motor Carriage has turned up in two different photos with either a desert paint or a woodland digital pattern paint job, new tracks, and road wheels. The M8 Greyhounds appear on parade rearmed with the 20x139mm RH202 (seems single belt) that is produced under licenses in Mexico, even with a KPV mahinegun in one. With new paint new tires. The motor has to be replaced, with what I don't know.

I have a mashed together .pdf trying to keep it all straight.

You need to start searching websites in Spanish - found out a lot of info on what they had that way - and google translate fills in the holes in my rusty Spanish from high school (Vice President of our Spanish club here).

The answer on missiles is that they dont produce any of them - no capability to produce them at all. And after they got their butts handed to them in the fighting in the Yucatan by a bunch of rebels armed worse than the kids from Red Dawn they bought more equipment and got a lot better trained.

Keep in mind for V1 and V2.2. you are talking a Mexican Army that is still depending in many ways on WWII or not much younger equipment - the only tanks they had were 50 or so Stuarts, a few M8A1 Gun Motor Carriages and three Sherman tank retrievers. And no SPG's of any sort except said M8A1's, nothing heavier than a 105 for a howitzer (and not many of those) and only about 20 MILAN missiles in total.

They did get some stuff from the French but the big APC buy that they did of ex-Belgian APC's didnt happen till 1995 and many didnt get delivered till later than that - and in V1 those vehicles would have stayed with the armies in Europe - it took the treaty on conventional arms reduction in our timeline (and probably in V2.2 as well) to have them be available

In fact their most effective anti-armor teams most likely would have used recoilless rifles mounted on Jeeps or light trucks - made for a very mobile and effective anti-armor combo

[swaghauler]

Regarding logistics, yes, the Mexican army was never flush with trucks. However, especially after NAFTA, the civilian 18-wheeler fleet ballooned. Thousands of 18-wheelers originating in Mexico cross the border into the U.S. every day, carrying everything from fresh produce to consumer electronics (and sometimes contraband). In the event of a war with the U.S.A. (i.e. T2K), the Mexican military could requisition those thousands of civilian cargo carries to cart supplies for the invasion force. It's really just that simple. Problem solved.

There were approximately 1/2 Million CDL trucks running in Mexico during the 90's (it's about four times that now compared to our roughly 4 million trucks). The big issue is how many would be serviceable. The Mexican fleet was around 70% "new" (in other words, a 1990's vintage model) because of the NAFTA agreement. Meanwhile, the US had hit its "10-year Turnover" in 1993 for over 80% of the fleet. For those who don't know, the "Life Expectancy" of a CDL Truck is roughly 10 Years & 1 Million Miles before replacement is inevitably needed (most Trucks run 100K miles a year on average). This would mean that most of these trucks would be 90's models with COMPUTERIZED FUEL INJECTION. Once The Exchange occurs and the resulting EMPs, these trucks will NEVER move again, not without a new computer module. This would leave between 100k and 150k unaffected trucks in Mexico and roughly 500K to 600K trucks in the US.

This does highlight one of the "horrors" of The Exchange, The EMPs will knock out most vehicles, electric, communications, and electronics. While a great number of City services are "hardened" to survive a nuke, they rely on diesel generators in an emergency. Most cities have a 7-day supply of fuel. After that, the water and sewage STOP FLOWING! Today any major US city only has THREE DAYS of consumables in its stores/commercial properties and this was still only 7 days in the late 90's. SEVEN DAYS and the natives will certainly begin to kill each other for food and water (and maybe as early as 3 days if shortages were present at the start).

[Olefin]

The EMP bursts wouldnt have fried that many trucks but it would certainly have affected anything in the area where the nukes were used - i.e. no nukes in western NY or PA so those areas would have been fine - versus LA area where the detonation of three 500 kiloton plus nukes one after the other would have definitely fried just about every ignition and electrical device there was in the basin

[swaghauler]

The EMP bursts wouldnt have fried that many trucks but it would certainly have affected anything in the area where the nukes were used - i.e. no nukes in western NY or PA so those areas would have been fine - versus LA area where the detonation of three 500 kiloton plus nukes one after the other would have definitely friend just about every ignition and electrical device there was in the basin

This is one of the areas in which GDW was WAY OFF. In their defense, it's not like they could just Google it. The Russians ALWAYS planned on high-altitude detonations to cause widespread failure of Civilian Infrastructure. There was even a posting about it in a thread on this forum. I disagree with the NUMBER of large strikes BOTH SIDES made in the original Canon (as you already know I don't follow Canon without reason). In my Exchange, only about a dozen ICBMs are launched with the SPECIFIC purpose of causing EMP. The Russians (I start with V2.2) also EMP Poland, Germany, The UK, and (supposedly by accident) Northeastern France near the Rhine and along the Channel. Ground targets which are hit by nukes at all are only hit by smaller nukes (150kt or less) launched by ships or subs (so as not to trigger a general Exchange) or TAC Nukes (50kt or less) fired by artillery.
In my scenario, most of the major damage inflicted in Poland was done by large Thermobaric Munitions like the attack on Warsaw. They cause the same physical damage as nukes without the radiation so no "slow death in the rubble." There is also a precedent for this. When Putin attacked Grozny in 1999, he asked about using poison gas. After he was informed that the UN would treat that as a "war crime," he chose Thermobaric Munitions instead. The Chechens were literally INCINERATED trying to defend the city. It fell in days. Thermobarics carry all the horror of a nuke without the fallout.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Those people caught in thermobaric weapon attacks typically die from the pressure wave and/or asphyxiation before their (now dead) bodies are incinerated.
This is still a very unpleasant way to die, you're either crushed by the over-pressure or the vacuum created by all that oxygen being rapidly consumed ruptures your lungs.
In some circumstances, the fuel burns but does not detonate, then you see deaths by incineration.

[Olefin]

This is one of the areas in which GDW was WAY OFF. In their defense, it's not like they could just Google it. The Russians ALWAYS planned on high-altitude detonations to cause widespread failure of Civilian Infrastructure. There was even a posting about it in a thread on this forum. I disagree with the NUMBER of large strikes BOTH SIDES made in the original Canon (as you already know I don't follow Canon without reason). In my Exchange, only about a dozen ICBMs are launched with the SPECIFIC purpose of causing EMP. The Russians (I start with V2.2) also EMP Poland, Germany, The UK, and (supposedly by accident) Northeastern France near the Rhine and along the Channel. Ground targets which are hit by nukes at all are only hit by smaller nukes (150kt or less) launched by ships or subs (so as not to trigger a general Exchange) or TAC Nukes (50kt or less) fired by artillery.
In my scenario, most of the major damage inflicted in Poland was done by large Thermobaric Munitions like the attack on Warsaw. They cause the same physical damage as nukes without the radiation so no "slow death in the rubble." There is also a precedent for this. When Putin attacked Grozny in 1999, he asked about using poison gas. After he was informed that the UN would treat that as a "war crime," he chose Thermobaric Munitions instead. The Chechens were literally INCINERATED trying to defend the city. It fell in days. Thermobarics carry all the horror of a nuke without the fallout.

I was actually surprised they didnt include EMP large scale attacks - they were in the novel War Day that had been published in 1984 - in fact those attacks were what caused most of the damage to the US in the exchange in that war - and the US fried the Soviets with EMP as well. They definitely overestimated the effects of EMP from the local nuclear attacks - those would have cause issues in the area surrounding the detonations but wouldnt have affected areas hundreds of miles away

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySGT. I have a vague recollection that the Mexican M8 Greyhounds were fitted with a commercial truck engine to replace the old motor.
I will have to check my books because I can't remember where I saw that info and obviously I can't be certain it's accurate.

I have heard it mentioned, but I have not been able to confirm it. It makes sense that they would have to. The original gasoline motor would have to be worn out and there isn't parts in abundance anymore. Making the fleet diesel makes sense too.

I have photos of them on parade and have seen their 5th of May parades with M8 on parade sporting 20mms or 14.5 KPVs and new radio antennas.

The Mexican Armies OPSEC is 1000% better than the U.S. Army definitely.

[Olefin]

Actually there is lots of stuff online showing what the M8's were re-equipped with. You just need to be able to either habla espanol or alternatively use a lot of google translate

[ArmySGT.]

You need to start searching websites in Spanish - found out a lot of info on what they had that way - and google translate fills in the holes in my rusty Spanish from high school (Vice President of our Spanish club here).

http://rtvmodeler.com/MEX/tierra/global.htm

http://todopormexico.foroactivo.com.mx/f43-vehiculos

http://www.hollilla.com/picviewer.phptid=2982730

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/mexico.htm

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzers.html (you have to searh by individual vehicles. It is large PDFs all on one vehicle as used by every nation that fielded it. The Mexican M3A1s are all monuments now.

https://www.taringa.net/posts/info/10301240/Armamento-del-Ejercito-Mexicano.html

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Armamento_del_Ej%C3%A9rcito_Mexicano

https://www.scribd.com/doc/304960189/Worldwide-Equipment-Guide-2014-FINAL-Vol-1-Ground-Systems

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[Olefin]

or you can go here and do translate to find out if the M8 is armed differently and what engine it has -

https://www.facebook.com/SentinelMexico1/posts/729029930533996:0

Carro blindado ligero de reconocimiento 6x6 de fabricaci3n estadounidense, Ford M8 A1 Greyhound modificado, del Ejrcito Mexicano, en las instalaciones de la 25/a Zona Militar, en esquema pixelado selv!tico en verdes, que es el oltimo de varios empleados por este longevo carro blindado.

Los Greyhound, de dise+-o y operaci3n de la Segunda Guerra Mundial, fueron adquiridos por nuestro pa-s en 1947, 40 unidades destinadas al recin creado 12/o. Regimiento de Caballer-a Mecanizada (12/o. RCM) en la ciudad de Puebla.

Inicialmente portaban el ca+-3n original contra carro M6 de 37 mm, sin embargo estos veh-culos han sufrido varias modificaciones locales, la primera importante de ellas fue la sustituci3n del ca+-3n M6 por un Hispano Suiza AKAN Mk.46 de 20 mm.

En 1988 se realiza una nueva modificaci3n, ahora a la estructura del carro, reemplazando los faldones laterales por unos diferentes y aprovechando el espacio entre el eje delantero y los dos traseros para colocar ah- bidones de combustible o agua y un neum!tico de repuesto. Adem!s se le agregaron nuevas luces y nuevos neum!ticos con mejor poder de tracci3n.

En 1992 se realiza una nueva modificaci3n y mejora, con un paquete de actualizaci3n de la empresa estadounidense NAPCO International, sustituyendo el motor original Hercules de 110 hp a gasolina por un Detroit 4-53N V4 a diesel de 140 hp y ametralladora de 7.62mm coaxial, aunque tambin se han visto ejemplares con lo que parecen ser M2 Browning .50 en la misma posici3n. Adem!s, f-sicamente este carro sufri3 extensas modificaciones en su estructura, sobre todo en los laterales, se le agregaron troneras y mirillas de cristal blindado. Debido a estas modificaciones, el espacio entre el eje delantero y los traseros desapareci3 y el neum!tico de repuesto se reposicion3 en la parte superior trasera del veh-culo. En la parte superior se le agregaron dos escotillas, se reemplaz3 del sistema elctrico y se agreg3 un nuevo sistema de comunicaci3n interna.

En el a+-o 2000 sufre su oltima actualizaci3n reemplazando el anterior ca+-3n por uno nuevo de 20 mm del tipo GIAT F2 francs, al parecer de origen sudafricano y su sistema de alimentaci3n se coloc3 encima de la torreta. El de la imagen corresponde a esta oltima versi3n, aunque se le ha removido el ca+-3n y ametralladoras. Empleaban tambin como arma secundaria un M2 Browning de calibre .50 montada en su afuste.

A la fecha siguen activos la mayor-a dentro del 6/o y 9/o Regimientos Blindados de Reconocimiento en la ciudad de Puebla.

Poseen un blindaje que va de los 19 mm en la parte delantera a los 3 mm en partes menos cr-ticas. Emplean una tripulaci3n de cuatro elementos

which translates to

Light armored car of reconnaissance 6x6 of American manufacture, Ford M8 A1 Greyhound modified, of the Mexican Army, in the facilities of the 25 / a Military Zone, in pixelated jungle scheme in greens, which is the last of several employees by this long-armored armored car.


The Greyhounds, design and operation of the Second World War, were acquired by our country in 1947, 40 units for the newly created 12 / o. Mechanized Cavalry Regiment (12 / RCM) in the city of Puebla.

Initially they carried the original gun against the M6 37 mm car, however these vehicles have undergone several local modifications, the first important of which was the replacement of the M6 cannon by a Hispano Suiza AKAN Mk.46 of 20 mm.

In 1988 a new modification is made, now to the structure of the car, replacing the side skirts by different ones and taking advantage of the space between the front axle and the two rear to place drums of fuel or water and a spare tire. In addition, new lights and new tires with better traction power were added.

In 1992 a new modification and improvement is made, with an update package of the American company NAPCO International, replacing the original Hercules engine of 110 hp to gasoline by a Detroit 4-53N V4 to diesel of 140 hp and machine gun of 7.62mm coaxial , although they have also seen specimens with what appear to be M2 Browning .50 in the same position. In addition, physically this car underwent extensive modifications in its structure, especially on the sides, were added pockets and windows of armored glass. Due to these modifications, the space between the front axle and the rear axles disappeared and the spare tire was repositioned in the upper rear part of the vehicle. In the upper part, two hatches were added, the electrical system was replaced and a new internal communication system was added.

n the year 2000 it suffers its last update replacing the previous one with a new one of 20 mm of the type GIAT F2 French, apparently of South African origin and its feeding system was placed on top of the turret. The one in the image corresponds to this last version, although the cannon and machine guns have been removed. They also used as a secondary weapon a M2 Browning caliber of .50 mounted in its support.

To date, the majority remain active within the 6th and 9th Armored Reconnaissance Regiments in the city of Puebla.

They have a shield that goes from 19 mm in the front to 3 mm in less critical parts. Employ a crew of four elements

Thus the question - "Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
ArmySGT. I have a vague recollection that the Mexican M8 Greyhounds were fitted with a commercial truck engine to replace the old motor.
I will have to check my books because I can't remember where I saw that info and obviously I can't be certain it's accurate."

Answer - yes they replaced the old gas engines with a Detroit Diesel motor back in 1992 - thus for the canon they would have diesel engines not gasoline

[Olefin]

Want to know stuff about the Mexican Army, Air Force, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/SentinelMexico1/

for instance

Camion 4X4 de fabricaci3n nacional Chevrolet Kodiak K5500 arrastrando un obusero de fabricaci3n estadounidense Rock Island Arsenal M2A1 de calibre 105 mm pertenecientes al Heroico Colegio Militar.

which is

National 4X4 truck manufactured by Chevrolet Kodiak K5500, dragging a US-made Rock Island Arsenal M2A1 105 mm caliber gun belonging to the Heroico Colegio Militar.

Or you can go to this forum run by people who used to be in the Mexican Armed Forces

http://defensamexico.activoforo.com/f1-ejercito-mexicano

for great info like - ORBAT - Batallones de Infanter-a del Ejrcito Mexicano (Actualizacion 2013)

or Aument3 a m!s del doble la cifra de efectivos de Sedena en oltimos 37 a+-os

Mexico DF. The Secretary of National Defense (Sedena) announced that the number of its troops has more than doubled in the last 37 years, going from 92 thousand 559 in 1976 to 212 thousand 208 in 2013.

In response to a request for information, the agency delivered a list of its members from year to year, beginning in 1976. In the document, it is noted that as of 1997, the number of its members remained almost the same.

For example, in 1997 there were 182,328 personnel; in 1998, the figure was the same as the previous year; in 1999 and 2000, the number was 182 thousand 329 items, respectively. For 2001, it increased by 2 thousand 814 elements compared to the previous year to reach 185 thousand 143.