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  • Originally posted by RN7 View Post
    From logically trying to look at what a Soviet nuclear attack on Australia might look like, and what the Soviet command would be prepared to commit or spare from use elsewhere...
    A decent list, but one I feel could benefit from a local perspective.
    Primary Targets

    SS-18
    Adelaide, SA (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Submarine Building, Military Vehicles, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - As far as I am aware, no subs have been built here for some time.

    Canberra, ACT (National Capital and International Air Port, NASA Deep Space Communications Station) - The "international air port" is barely worthy of the name. It's not a lot more than a landing strip and a few supporting buildings. As for the politicians in Canberra, nuke away - it'd be no great loss!
    I would miss that very cute woman I used to see there though.

    Geelong, VIC (Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Airport and Sea Port)
    Melbourne, VIC (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, Military Aircraft, International Air Port and Sea Port, Army and Airforce Base) - Geelong and Melbourne could potentially be hit with one missile. Might take two warheads though to be sure. Warship (or any ship) building capacity is very limited (when compared to other locations). The various military bases are relatively small affairs and well dispursed.

    Sydney, NSW (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Nuclear Reactor, International Air Port and Sea Port, Major Army Base, Garden Island Navy Base) - I spent nearly ten years in Sydney. It would require multiple warheads to strike at all the listed targets. One may take out the majority of the port facilities, air port and garden island, but Holsworthy, Ingleburn, Richmond etc are quite a distance away (Richmond would require a nuke of it's own, but it's not much of a target.

    Woomera, SA (Air Force Air & Space Test Range) - Don't know a lot about this one, but I believe there's not a lot there to nuke. I think it's more of an open space than actual facility.

    SS-11 & SS-25
    Newcastle, NSW (Industrial Centre, Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - The Newcastle area would require several warheads at least to cover all probable targets, however some of those targets simply aren't worth the effort. Singleton for example is the Infantry Training Centre for the Australian Army, but consists of a small collection of buildings housing around a thousand people (at most) the majority of whom are usually out in the field at any given time. And those fields, well, they're BIG!

    The remaining "target"s I don't really know enough about to comment on effectively. Some, like Darwin, I haven't laid eyes on in over twenty years, others such as Perth I've never been to.


    As for the "total war" list...

    Alice Springs, NT (Airport, Radar Station) - Is it really worth nuking an airstrip and radar dish

    Devonport, TAS (Airport and Sea Port) - probably two nukes required although neither needs to be very big. The port facility is incapable of major work being barely more than docks.

    Launceston, TAS (Airport, Army Base) - two warheads required as there is at least 15 km between them. The two army bases are barely worthy of the name however, both are reserve units no larger than about an acre in size (0.4 hectares) with a standing staff counted on one hand. One is an infantry company, the other in the CBD is Artillery and support units (medical, supply, admin).

    Orange, NSW (Army Base) - reserve unit only. No more than a handful of standing staff in BHQ plus thousands of sheep...

    Richmond, NSW (Major Airforce Base) - Hmm, major.... If you consider C-130's and a hospital unit as a major combat asset...

    Wagga Wagga, NSW (Airport, Airforce Base) - definately nukable since 1RTB is located at Kapooka, a short drive away. 1RTB is the recruit training centre for the entire army, everyone besides officers goes through there.
    HOWEVER, it is only a training centre...
    If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

    Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

    Mors ante pudorem

    Comment


    • Originally posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
      7.62mmN L2A1 (automatic rifle)
      VERY rare. In all my years in the infantry I've seen a total of, one, count 'em, 1 L2A1 in working condition plus one in the infantry museum at Singleton near Newcastle.
      This doesn't mean that they aren't relatively plentiful in other areas, just that they're not standard issue in the units I was in or associated with.
      If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

      Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

      Mors ante pudorem

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
        VERY rare. In all my years in the infantry I've seen a total of, one, count 'em, 1 L2A1 in working condition plus one in the infantry museum at Singleton near Newcastle.
        This doesn't mean that they aren't relatively plentiful in other areas, just that they're not standard issue in the units I was in or associated with.
        I do find it very interesting the way the Army seemed to hand out it's equipment. One of my friends joined an armoured recce regiment in Sydney and they had about 12 L2A1s apparently and the infantry unit in Western Australia he was in later had about 6 but that unit also had a Series III Landrover while all the other units had 110s and had complained that support units were getting the Austcam uniforms while his infantry unit was still in JGs!

        Comment


        • SS-18
          Adelaide, SA (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Submarine Building, Military Vehicles, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - As far as I am aware, no subs have been built here for some time.
          Well were do the Collins Class subs go to be serviced or repaired if HMAS Stirling at Garden Island WA cant do the job or is nuked then

          Canberra, ACT (National Capital and International Air Port, NASA Deep Space Communications Station) - The "international air port" is barely worthy of the name. It's not a lot more than a landing strip and a few supporting buildings. As for the politicians in Canberra, nuke away - it'd be no great loss! I would miss that very cute woman I used to see there though.
          Still an airport that handles 2.8 million people a year and that has a 3,270M runway and secondary 1,679M runway would be of some use.


          Geelong, VIC (Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Airport and Sea Port)
          Melbourne, VIC (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, Military Aircraft, International Air Port and Sea Port, Army and Airforce Base) - Geelong and Melbourne could potentially be hit with one missile. Might take two warheads though to be sure.
          My thinking exactly


          Warship (or any ship) building capacity is very limited (when compared to other locations). The various military bases are relatively small affairs and well dispursed.
          I think any shipyard that can build and repair modern warships is worth targeting.


          Sydney, NSW (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Nuclear Reactor, International Air Port and Sea Port, Major Army Base, Garden Island Navy Base) - I spent nearly ten years in Sydney. It would require multiple warheads to strike at all the listed targets. One may take out the majority of the port facilities, air port and garden island, but Holsworthy, Ingleburn, Richmond etc are quite a distance away (Richmond would require a nuke of it's own, but it's not much of a target.
          A 20MT warhead might do the job, but I still would be open to a second missile strike on Australia's largest city. I think RAAF Richmond is home to much of Australia's military airlift resources, although its unlikely that all would be based there.


          Woomera, SA (Air Force Air & Space Test Range) - Don't know a lot about this one, but I believe there's not a lot there to nuke. I think it's more of an open space than actual facility.
          Woomera Test Range is the largest defence systems test and evaluation range in the western world and to be honest I'm not sure what there either as its sort of an Australian White Sands, so I believe a 20MT warhead would be needed to at least disable operations from it.

          Newcastle, NSW (Industrial Centre, Airport and Sea Port, Army Base) - The Newcastle area would require several warheads at least to cover all probable targets, however some of those targets simply aren't worth the effort. Singleton for example is the Infantry Training Centre for the Australian Army, but consists of a small collection of buildings housing around a thousand people (at most) the majority of whom are usually out in the field at any given time. And those fields, well, they're BIG!
          A MIRV strike then perphaps

          Alice Springs, NT (Airport, Radar Station) - Is it really worth nuking an airstrip and radar dish
          No its just a potential target.

          Devonport, TAS (Airport and Sea Port) - probably two nukes required although neither needs to be very big. The port facility is incapable of major work being barely more than docks.

          Launceston, TAS (Airport, Army Base) - two warheads required as there is at least 15 km between them. The two army bases are barely worthy of the name however, both are reserve units no larger than about an acre in size (0.4 hectares) with a standing staff counted on one hand. One is an infantry company, the other in the CBD is Artillery and support units (medical, supply, admin).
          I wouldnt bother with Tasmania myself, as its of no strategic value.


          Orange, NSW (Army Base) - reserve unit only. No more than a handful of standing staff in BHQ plus thousands of sheep...
          Again just a potential target.

          Richmond, NSW (Major Airforce Base) - Hmm, major.... If you consider C-130's and a hospital unit as a major combat asset...
          Not all military resources are frontline combat ones.


          Wagga Wagga, NSW (Airport, Airforce Base) - definately nukable since 1RTB is located at Kapooka, a short drive away. 1RTB is the recruit training centre for the entire army, everyone besides officers goes through there. HOWEVER, it is only a training centre...
          Worth a nuke then

          Comment


          • Originally posted by RN7 View Post
            A 20MT warhead might do the job, but I still would be open to a second missile strike on Australia's largest city. I think RAAF Richmond is home to much of Australia's military airlift resources, although its unlikely that all would be based there.
            Based maybe, but unlikely to remain there in the event of a war. Unless the nukes were sent as the opening shots of the war, I can't see a nuke hitting more than a handful of transport aircraft plus the servicing facilities (which I'm sure are duplicated elsewhere in various forms).

            Originally posted by RN7 View Post
            A MIRV strike then perphaps
            Newcastle, Woolongong and especially Sydney would need multiple warheads to take out completely. Unlike cities in the northern hemisphere (especially Europe), Australian cites are spread over a very wide area. Sydney, with only approximately 4 million people (a little under a 1/5th of the total Australian population) takes about an hour to drive across even taking the motorways and cruising at around 110 kph.
            Richmond is approximately 50km from Garden Island/CBD, Orchard hills is 20km from Richmond, Holsworthy 45km from Richmond and Holsworthy to the CBD/Garden Island area is about 30km.
            It is my estimate that you'd need at least five warheads to significantly damage just those targets mentioned.

            Originally posted by RN7 View Post
            Worth a nuke then
            I'm on the fence about this one actually. Being primarily just a training centre, it would be relatively easy to set up again elsewhere and be up and running within a short period or time (provided instructors could be found).
            During WWII and Vietnam, other locations also conducted recruit training, so...
            It's be worth a nuke if there were a few free, but it's not a location I'd have on my primary list (even though personally I'd LOVE to see it as a smoking, radioactive hole in the ground, but then so would anyone else who's ever been subjected to it's horrors).
            If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

            Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

            Mors ante pudorem

            Comment


            • It always good to get a local prospective on things. Would be great if we could do some target lists for other countries and get some local knowledge as well from people who live there.


              Newcastle, Woolongong and especially Sydney would need multiple warheads to take out completely. Unlike cities in the northern hemisphere (especially Europe), Australian cites are spread over a very wide area. Sydney, with only approximately 4 million people (a little under a 1/5th of the total Australian population) takes about an hour to drive across even taking the motorways and cruising at around 110 kph. Richmond is approximately 50km from Garden Island/CBD, Orchard hills is 20km from Richmond, Holsworthy 45km from Richmond and Holsworthy to the CBD/Garden Island area is about 30km.
              It is my estimate that you'd need at least five warheads to significantly damage just those targets mentioned.

              I live in Dublin, Ireland which is a relatively small city compared to some of the bigger cities and conurbations in Britain and Europe, yet it would take nearly an hour to drive from the northern end to the southern end of it at a steady speed as the suburbs are huge, and the Dublin area has now spread well beyond Co. Dublin and out into four other counties.

              Comment


              • Well this getting beyond the Australia discussion Mohender.

                Here you are forgetting about boomers and aircrafts. Then, in the game (always v2.2) the four Russian SS-18 bases were targeted and destroyed and there is no point to do that if the missiles are already launched (especially as no one hits any target anywere). That alone would explain why US wasn't hit by SS-18.
                I doubt bombers would used in a first strike by either America or Russia, particularly against each other. Although boomers may be used in conjunction with land based ICBMs.


                Two things make me think that most of this comes from insufficient knowledge from the original T2K team (they didn't have internet and many informations were unavailable). Out of the 7 other bases destroyed in USSR, 3 are SS-26 (actual Iskander) and 1 is SS-27 (commissioned only after 1998). There is also no reason for them to have forgotten the 2 bases in Kazakhstan and especially/only these ones.
                Probably right here.


                So to answer your question:
                - All ICBM bases are not listed as destroyed but if two SS-18 bases remain why not use any of them (104) against US/Canada and their highly strategic targets
                They may use some, but there are other targets (Australia) that need to be hit as well.


                - To retaliate the soviets still have boomers and aircrafts+mobile ICBM fire units (about 300 SS-25).
                I think they would be largely used against American and NATO targets closer to the USSR.


                - If the soviets starts, it is possible that they don't send SS-18 in the first place. However, I would agree that it is highly unlikely. On the other hand, again, why leaving about 80 SS-18 in their Silos while they are the best suited weapons to take out NORAD, the US ICBM bases and even Washington DC
                Well they dont really need to use the SS-18 (R-36M2) to hit the US as other ICBM's have the range, but to cause the most damage they would be well suited.


                In addition, according to the game text (again v2.2), both sides refrain from targetting the other side's ICBM land base for quite some times. At last, they do: All 4 US bases are taken out (Forks, Malmstrom, Minot & Warren +Vandenberg) and almost all Soviets bases in Russia with the base in others republics not accounted for (most likely forgotten). Then, they are two possibilities: All missiles are destroyed before being launched or they are launched before the bases are destroyed and, then, SS-18 should be accounted for all over (there are none/according to your own account most Satan were equipped with 20Mt warheads, they would have been used). I grant you that the Mt listed are highly questionable and can be open to debate (but that will become endless)
                I don't think we will ever know will we.


                For my parts (I mean in my game), I use several SS-18 but only on highly strategic targets. They are not used extensively because the first strike is successful in decapitating the US ICBM force. Then, in turn, the Soviets' ICBM force (silo only) is decapitated by strikes from SLBM.
                If the Soviets launched a first strike on the US I think its highly probable that most if not all of the US silo based ICBMs would be launched before they were destroyed by the incoming Soviet missiles.

                Comment


                • I'll answer that one on the What is Cannon thread started by Leg.
                  Last edited by Mohoender; 10-14-2009, 12:04 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
                    VERY rare. In all my years in the infantry I've seen a total of, one, count 'em, 1 L2A1 in working condition plus one in the infantry museum at Singleton near Newcastle.
                    Same here. I've only ever seen one in working condition and I never actually saw it fired.
                    sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Targan View Post
                      Same here. I've only ever seen one in working condition and I never actually saw it fired.
                      Weren't you producing the F1 What would be of these

                      Oops realized that the L2A1 was a version of the FN-FAL/L1A1 produced in very little number by Australia.

                      What about the F1, nevertheless Are there still some Owen around
                      Last edited by Mohoender; 10-15-2009, 09:47 AM.

                      Comment


                      • I trained briefly with the F1 SMG waaaaay back in early 91. They were withdrawn from my unit within months of my arrival. A very simple weapon, although being a 9mm, I can't speak all that highly of effectiveness.

                        As for the Owen, I believe they went out of service back in the 60's. The F1 replaced it with the vast majority of Owens being destroyed. A few might be found "off the books" in unit armouries, but don't count on them being in working order (hard to ask the armourer to maintain them without parts and authorisation).

                        Besides the issued L1A1 SLRs, M60's, handful of M16A1s and the odd M203 (the latter two received as hand-me-downs from another unit which had received their F88 Steyr AUG earlier), my first unit had a Bren gun, two SMLEs and an ancient Martini Henry tucked away up the back of the company armoury.
                        If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                        Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                        Mors ante pudorem

                        Comment


                        • Australia for dummies

                          [ATTACH]827[/ATTACH]
                          Last edited by Legbreaker; 04-29-2021, 04:57 AM.
                          If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                          Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                          Mors ante pudorem

                          Comment


                          • I'd add and important addition just below "Sharks" and just above "Stinging Jellyfish" on the left hand side of the map - "TARGAN".

                            sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

                            Comment


                            • I think "deranged gunmen" on Tasmania is right on the money.

                              If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                              Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                              Mors ante pudorem

                              Comment


                              • My two cents is there is nothing saying that a ANZAC Division could organized and trained and sent somewhere ethier the middle east or Europe in the later stages

                                I also think that eveybody needs to take a look at target list for nukes and remember that, they are just lists, many factors have taken into account for actually nukes fired off durring TW2000

                                The Targets Are

                                US Forces in Europe and Misslie Launch feilds in the CONUS

                                Then Staging/Training areas for troops for US Forces in CONUS (cause that were the bulk of it Military is)

                                War Industrials CONUS

                                Now comes tragets outside the CONUS but still covering the same areas

                                But we must remmber the following

                                how much was used before the counter attack
                                how missile fail to go off
                                how many were used againist new targets
                                I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier.

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