Australia Twilight War & After...

[Mohoender]

To all the incensed Aussies ( or everyone else for that matter )that fume at this laughable notion - I hope you get that I am thinking in game terms here - firstly that the situation COULD arise and then secondly that it DOES.

history has examples of these kind of invasions a plenty -but not from Australia afaik - except for ypu Aussies that is .

That's basically why we are mostly called Indo-European. That's also how some of your ancestors, HQ, established kingdoms as far down as Sicily. Not to forget the Christian kingdom of Jerusalem.

On second thought, that is effectilvely a good idea. In my game, the most important threat to Australia is refugees coming by sea (from Japan, Korea and Taiwan). At last they finally get to be 5 millions but when they reach 3 million the Australian government doesn't welcome them anymore and orders the fleet to push them back. This results in massacres and bloody killings. It would be more than possible to have a military fleet with one of the last groups to try and force their landing.

[headquarters]

agreed

That's basically why we are mostly called Indo-European. That's also how some of your ancestors, HQ, established kingdoms as far down as Sicily. Not to forget the Christian kingdom of Jerusalem.

On second thought, that is effectilvely a good idea. In my game, the most important threat to Australia is refugees coming by sea (from Japan, Korea and Taiwan). At last they finally get to be 5 millions but when they reach 3 million the Australian government doesn't welcome them anymore and orders the fleet to push them back. This results in massacres and bloody killings. It would be more than possible to have a military fleet with one of the last groups to try and force their landing.

Maybe something like that -yes- those countries ,especially Korea has the shipping and arms needed to pull off something like that ,even if it did go down as a terrible and bloody mess.

I dont mean a nefarious evil invasion plan - but maybe a desperate mass exodus of civillians,key personel and whatever military could be brought along as their homelands are nuclear cinders and cannibalism is the new national sport due to famine.

Mo- I do know about the states that some of our ancestors created that way . I would argue that history repeats itself .

[Mohoender]

Mo- I do know about the states that some of our ancestors created that way . I would argue that history repeats itself .

I was sure you knew. That was some very impressive achievements nonetheless. The point behind it is that this rag tag fleet if it includes some fine military ships can also include inter-seas ferry and numerous junks. Such a fleet would progress (IMO) like the norsemen, stopping at various islands for trade, rest and raids. In fact, in my mind, it sounds as some sea marauders.

Could also be an interesting base for a campaign.

[ChalkLine]

Australia, frankly, is a dump. The Dutch sailed right around it long before Captain Cook turned up and the Dutch intelligently decided the whole place wasn't worth looking into. The only reason that the British liked the place was that because the USA had stopped taking their penal refuse they needed somewhere very, very far away to send them.

Really, we're more likely to invade Indonesia. If the weather gets much hotter due to global warming much of Australia will be utterly uninhabitable.

[jester]

The idea behind some of my post was other than a cool kick ass campaign. And not just the small scale actions with limited results they would accomplish, although a delay in production or shipping durring a critical phase could mean the difference between defeat and success to the nations troops in the field. I mean what happens when they do not get the fuel and supplies to continue their advance because a team of spetzis sunk a couplple of ships and closed a port bottling the supply ships up until the sunken wrecks could be removed

Further, think of the fear and paranoia that would fill the population. Causing alot of distrust especialy of strangers.

Delays in passenger and employees due to new security protocols. The tying up of police forces. The curtailing of civil liberties, all of these adding to the stress to the population.

And the additional military forces in manpower and equipment to guard instalations and to hunt down the comandos thus robbing the commands at the front of men and material for defense at home.

I mean, water you say is an issue, so what happens if botulism is released into a water supply I hear Ivan had a very nasty strain too. Or the teams set off some thermite bombs in those ready to burn tinder areas you mention Add some of the above and you add more chaos and fear.

It is not so much the actual damage the small force does with a few kilos of explisives, it is the fear and panic and chaos that they create that is an even greater weapon.

An example, how effective was the Doolittle Raid on Japan What effect did it have other than phsycological The actual damage was very minor, but it did show the Japanese that they were not beyond the reach of an attack.

[RN7]

From logically trying to look at what a Soviet nuclear attack on Australia might look like, and what the Soviet command would be prepared to commit or spare from use elsewhere. From the location of Soviet missile silos it would seem that the SS-17, SS-19 and SS-18 (R-36MU) ICBM"s are largely arrayed against targets in North America and the Western Hemisphere. Therefore it is likely that the Soviets would use a combination of the SS-18 (R-36M2) and the SS-11 and mobile SS-25 missiles against Australian targets. From the Russian Far East the SS-11 & SS-25 with a range of at least 10,500km can hit any target in Australia north of the State of Victoria, while the SS-18 (R-36M2) with a single 20MT warhead can hit any location in Australia, including Tasmania. The SS-18 (R-36M2) is designed to obliterate major targets like large cities that are furthest away from the USSR, which happens to be all of Australia"s largest cities. However they are also unlikely to be targeting all that many against Australia as they are in a full scale war against the United States, NATO and China. Therefore to knock Australia out I would use no more than a half dozen SS-18s against Australia"s largest cities and perhaps another 7 SS-11 and SS-25s.


Primary Targets

SS-18
Adelaide, SA (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Submarine Building, Military Vehicles, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Canberra, ACT (National Capital and International Air Port, NASA Deep Space Communications Station)
Geelong, VIC (Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Airport and Sea Port)
Melbourne, VIC (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, Military Aircraft, International Air Port and Sea Port, Army and Airforce Base)
Sydney, NSW (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Nuclear Reactor, International Air Port and Sea Port, Major Army Base, Garden Island Navy Base)
Woomera, SA (Air Force Air & Space Test Range)

SS-11 & SS-25
Brisbane, QLD (State Capital, Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Darwin, NT (Territorial Capital, International Airport and Sea Port, Army, Airforce and Navy Base, Radar Station, JORN Transponder)
Garden Island, WA (Major Navy Base)
Harold Holt Station (Joint Navy Communication Station)
Newcastle, NSW (Industrial Centre, Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Perth, WA (State Capital, and Major Population and Industrial Centre, Oil Refinery, Warship Building, International Airport, Army Base)
Pine Gap, NT (Joint Satellite Tracking Station)

To go the whole hog and wipe Australian civilisation out for the millennium I would also go for the following targets with a combination of SS-11, SS-25s and SLBMs from a boomer offshore.

Albury, NSW (Airport)
Alice Springs, NT (Airport, Radar Station)
Ajana, WA (JORN Radar Station)
Amberley, QLD (Major Airforce Base)
Avalon, VIC (Airport)
Barrow Island, WA (Oil and Natural Gas Field Support Facilities)
Benalla, VIC (Munitions Industry)
Bendigo, VIC (Military Vehicles, Military Uniforms)
Broome, WA (JORN Transponder)
Bullsbrook, WA (Airforce Base)
Cairns, QLD (Airport and Sea Port, Army and Navy Base)
Carnarvon, WA (JORN Radar Station)
Coffs Harbour, NSW (Airport)
Curtin, WA (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
Dampier, WA (Sea Port, Army Base)
Derby, WA (Radar Station)
Devonport, TAS (Airport and Sea Port)
Edinburgh, SA (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
East Sale, VIC (Airforce Base)
Elliot, NT (Radar Station)
Erina, NSW (Army Base)
Esperance, WA (Sea Port)
Exmouth, WA (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
Fremantle, WA (Sea Port)
Geraldton, WA (Sea Port, Satellite Communication Monitoring Facility)
Gingin, WA (Airforce Base)
Gold Coast, QLD (Population Centre, International Airport)
Groote Eylandt, NT (JORN Radar Station)
Hamilton Island, QLD (Airport)
Hobart, TAS (State Capitol, International Airport and Sea Port, Army Base)
Jervis Bay, NSW (Navy Training Station)
Kalumburu, WA (JORN Transponder)
Kalkaringi, NT (JORN Radar Station)
Launceston, TAS (Airport, Army Base)
Laverton, WA (JORN Radar Station)
Lithgow, NSW (Small Arms and Ammunition)
Longreach, QLD (JORN Radar Station)
Lynd River, QLD (JORN Radar Station)
Mackay, QLD (Airport and Sea Port)
Moomba, SA (Natural Gas Pipeline Terminal and Processing Centre)
New Norcia Station, WA (European Space Agency Radio Antenna built in 2003)
Normanton, QLD (JORN Transponder)
Nowra, NSW (Navy Air Station)
Nhulunbuy, NT (JORN Transponder)
Oakey, QLD (Army Aviation Base)
Orange, NSW (Army Base)
Orchard Hill, NSW (Airforce Storage Facility)
Port Hedland, WA (Sea Port, JORN Radar Station)
Port Lincoln, SA (Sea Port)
Port Stanvac, SA (Oil Refinery and Sea Port)
Richmond, NSW (Major Airforce Base)
Rockhampton, QLD (Airport)
Scherger, QLD (Airforce Base, JORN Radar Station)
Shoal Bay, NT (Navy Intelligence Receiving Station)
Sunshine Coast, QLD (Population Centre, Airport)
Tamworth, NSW (Airport, Army Base)
Tindal, NT (Airforce Base)
Townsville, QLD (Airport and Sea Port, Major Army & Airforce Base)
Wagga Wagga, NSW (Airport, Airforce Base)
Williamstown, NSW (Major Airforce Base)
Woodside, SA (Army Base)
Wollongong, NSW (Industrial Centre and Sea Port)
Wyndham, WA (Radar Station)

[Targan]

I don't deny that that is a viable target list RN7 but just hitting the targets in the SS-18 and SS-11/SS-25 lists would wipe out probably 80% of Australia's population. After that you'd may as well recolonise Australia from Asia because Australia as a nation would cease to exist with no hope of recovery.

[RN7]

I don't deny that that is a viable target list RN7 but just hitting the targets in the SS-18 and SS-11/SS-25 lists would wipe out probably 80% of Australia's population. After that you'd may as well recolonise Australia from Asia because Australia as a nation would cease to exist with no hope of recovery.

Well Targan unfortunately for Australia it would be very easy for the Soviets to do so. Despite the size of Australia most of the population, industry and military bases are clustered along the south-east corner in the states of New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia, along the south Queensland Coast and in Perth on the other side, with a few small remote towns and facilities elsewhere. Launching a dozen or so nuclear missiles against Australia is not much problem or a burden for the Soviets, and basically if they wanted they could make most of Australia uninhabitable for the next thousand years.

[Mohoender]

RN7

I understand your point and agree to some extend (in case of an all out nuclear war). However, that is not what happens in the twilight war. Why would the Soviets wipe out Australia and only lightly strike at the USA I agree that a few SS-18 will do the job but simply what would be the point of doing it in such a context

I just don't get the logic behind this except if you understand the Twilight War as an all out nuclear war. But in that case welcome to an entirely different game.

I definitely underestimated the importance of facilities such as Pine Gap (definitely not all in the South East) and finally blew them up but I don't see the point of sending that many SS-18 to Australia while according to the game not even one get to the US (probably because they are destroyed first hand by US). I reverted that in my game but in the original T2K the SS-18 bases are all gone (at least those the T2K original team could know of). Just because of that simple fact, it still can't be done. Of course, I'm not thinking IRL terms, If you do that is an entirely different matter again.

[Webstral]

I love the target list. Thanks for taking the time to assemble this great resource, RN7. We now have a good idea, I think, of the list of potential targets in Australia and can assign some sort of order of precedence to them.

I don't think RN7 is arguing that the Soviets would render Australia a wasteland--just that they could (and here's how they'd do it...). The same logic that would apply to exercising restraint regarding any Western non-nuclear power would apply to Australia. Attacks on Australia invite counterattacks against Soviet allies. Severe attacks on Australia may invite retaliation against the USSR. Better to inflict just enough damage to put Australia out of the fight.

Webstral

[RN7]

I love the target list. Thanks for taking the time to assemble this great resource, RN7. We now have a good idea, I think, of the list of potential targets in Australia and can assign some sort of order of precedence to them.

Thanks Webstral, I had great fun doing that list.

I don't think RN7 is arguing that the Soviets would render Australia a wasteland--just that they could (and here's how they'd do it...). The same logic that would apply to exercising restraint regarding any Western non-nuclear power would apply to Australia. Attacks on Australia invite counterattacks against Soviet allies. Severe attacks on Australia may invite retaliation against the USSR. Better to inflict just enough damage to put Australia out of the fight.

Exactly.

[Mohoender]

Exactly.

Ok, thanks.

[RN7]

I understand your point and agree to some extend (in case of an all out nuclear war). However, that is not what happens in the twilight war. Why would the Soviets wipe out Australia and only lightly strike at the USA I agree that a few SS-18 will do the job but simply what would be the point of doing it in such a context

Its just a list of potential targets, and example of what the Soviets could do to Australia if they wanted to do it.

I just don't get the logic behind this except if you understand the Twilight War as an all out nuclear war. But in that case welcome to an entirely different game.

That list can be used for anyones game or interpretation of Twilight 2000.

I definitely underestimated the importance of facilities such as Pine Gap (definitely not all in the South East) and finally blew them up but I don't see the point of sending that many SS-18 to Australia

The SS-18 is the only Soviet ICBM that can reach any target in Australia, particularly the highly developed and populated south east.

while according to the game not even one get to the US (probably because they are destroyed first hand by US). I reverted that in my game but in the original T2K the SS-18 bases are all gone (at least those the T2K original team could know of). Just because of that simple fact, it still can't be done. Of course, I'm not thinking IRL terms, If you do that is an entirely different matter again.

The reason why the SS-18 wasn't used against the US may be because it wasn't needed as other Soviet ICBMs can do the job. Also who attacked who first in the Twilight War, was it the US or the Soviets If it was the US then how did the Soviets strike the US if the US had taken out all their silos before they could retaliate. If it was the Soviets then how come the US managed to take out the SS-18 silos before the Soviets used them.

[Mohoender]

The reason why the SS-18 wasn't used against the US may be because it wasn't needed as other Soviet ICBMs can do the job. Also who attacked who first in the Twilight War, was it the US or the Soviets If it was the US then how did the Soviets strike the US if the US had taken out all their silos before they could retaliate. If it was the Soviets then how come the US managed to take out the SS-18 silos before the Soviets used them.

Here you are forgetting about boomers and aircrafts. Then, in the game (always v2.2) the four Russian SS-18 bases were targeted and destroyed and there is no point to do that if the missiles are already launched (especially as no one hits any target anywere). That alone would explain why US wasn't hit by SS-18. Two things make me think that most of this comes from insufficient knowledge from the original T2K team (they didn't have internet and many informations were unavailable). Out of the 7 other bases destroyed in USSR, 3 are SS-26 (actual Iskander) and 1 is SS-27 (commissioned only after 1998). There is also no reason for them to have forgotten the 2 bases in Kazakhstan and especially/only these ones.

So to answer your question:
- All ICBM bases are not listed as destroyed but if two SS-18 bases remain why not use any of them (104) against US/Canada and their highly strategic targets
- To retaliate the soviets still have boomers and aircrafts+mobile ICBM fire units (about 300 SS-25).
- If the soviets starts, it is possible that they don't send SS-18 in the first place. However, I would agree that it is highly unlikely. On the other hand, again, why leaving about 80 SS-18 in their Silos while they are the best suited weapons to take out NORAD, the US ICBM bases and even Washington DC

In addition, according to the game text (again v2.2), both sides refrain from targetting the other side's ICBM land base for quite some times. At last, they do: All 4 US bases are taken out (Forks, Malmstrom, Minot & Warren +Vandenberg) and almost all Soviets bases in Russia with the base in others republics not accounted for (most likely forgotten). Then, they are two possibilities: All missiles are destroyed before being launched or they are launched before the bases are destroyed and, then, SS-18 should be accounted for all over (there are none/according to your own account most Satan were equipped with 20Mt warheads, they would have been used). I grant you that the Mt listed are highly questionable and can be open to debate (but that will become endless)

For my parts (I mean in my game), I use several SS-18 but only on highly strategic targets. They are not used extensively because the first strike is successful in decapitating the US ICBM force. Then, in turn, the Soviets' ICBM force (silo only) is decapitated by strikes from SLBM.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well there's been quite a lot of information generated about the nuclear weapon aspects of Australia but I think it's worth discussing some of the smaller points also. For example, the list of weapons available to PC groups, so I offer up the following. It's a small list of firearms available just from Australian sources (e.g. military, police) up to about 1996 and certainly not comprehensive.

.38 Smith & Wesson service revolver (don't know the type)
9mmP Browning HP
9mmP SIG P226 (limited numbers for trails with SASR and other special units)

9mmP F1 SMG
9mmP Owen Gun (very limited numbers)
9mmP MP5
9mmP MP5SD (limited numbers)
9mmP L34A1 (limited numbers)
various police/civilian pistols such as 9mm Glocks, CZ75 & CZ85, M1911 competition variants and up to .44 Desert Eagle and 9mmP Uzi Pistol

.303 SMLE
.303 Jungle Carbine (can't think of the proper designation)
5.56mm M16A1
5.56mm F88 (AUG) rifle
5.56mm F88 carbine
5.56mm M4 Carbine (used by Commando Regiment for amphibious tasks)
7.62mmN L1A1
7.62mmN L2A1 (automatic rifle)
various civilian versions of military rifles like the M16, G3, Chinese Type 63 (AKA type 68) and M14
various ex-military semi-autos such as the SKS, M1 Carbine
various ex-military bolt-action rifles such as Swedish Mauser types, Kar-98K etc.

5.56mm F89 Minimi
7.62mm L4A4 Bren Gun
.303 Vickers Gun (very limited number & used only in the training role, some were supposed to be converted to 7.62mmN)
7.62mm M60
7.62mm MAG58
.30-06 M1919A4 (can't recall the local designation)
12.7mm M2 BMG

Various pump-action and semi-auto shotguns from police & civilian sources.
There's also the potential for a very limited number of L85A1 and FN FNC rifles from Papua New Guinea as their Army bought small numbers for trails.