Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[headquarters]

British marauder groups armaments

I can't recall where I read it, but I did see an article a few months ago that suggested that the UK still had a stockpile of SLR's which ran into the tens of thousands, so I think it's highly likely that the SLR would be the most commonly found weapon amongst British forces either though neccessity or choice. I also like the idea of reissuing Brens, and would probably add to that the possibility of very occasionally encountering militia and Home Service Force units in the UK armed with .303 Lee Enfields. There's also likely to be a number of MP5's in circulation as that was the standard issue long arm of most British police forces (at least on the mainland).

One minor thing - whilst I agree with most of what you've said here (including the reissue of the Bren gun), IRL Sterling Armaments went bust in the late 80's, so wouldn't be in any position to start remanufacturing the AR18.

(Of course, that doesn't mean that they have to go bust in a T2K World...)

On a side note, finding ways for marauder groups in the UK to be armed is a source of constant headaches for me...there are only so many dodgy French weapons dealers or abandoned HSF caches...I do sometimes envy those whose work is set in the US where it seems (to me at least) that both lawful and unlawful groups have relatively easy access to large amounts of weapons.

Interesting views on the G11 / G36 debate also. I've always been a fan of the G36, but as I use a Version 1 timeline following the logic here I think I may have to dump it in favour of the G11.

The relative shortage of arms and ammo is an appealing trait to running a campaign in terh UK rather than the US -in teh US no one asks twice if marauders have M2HBs, magnum .44s and SMGs.

But I guess you need some armed elements to counter any organized forces .So I guess you have used the obvious choices :

1) marauders are former services personel with all their gear intact-like a unit gone rogue,be it police,army,TA,any other govt. agency you can see armed in a T2K type scenario-events have led them out on the dark paths of reaving and so on

2) typical type marauders with studded leather jackets etc that have plundered caches ,armories,museums,arms dealers,auction houses ,private houses etc

3) slaves for guns programs run by foreigners selling arms to fuel their business.Danes,Norwegians,French,Netherlands have easy access to the UK coasts by ship-and these countries shave alot of guns in the populace

4) the illegal manufacturer - tons of designs are easily made from scraps or with a minimum of machihng and tooling.There have been numerous posts on the topic on the forum .The StenGun is typical .But the British Standard SMG is also interesting .AS is the PPSH-43 for the more well equipped black market dealer.See thebigbookofwar for some examples.

5) battlefield overflow. Squaddies will take home or send home lots of stash if possible -so will the dishonest and greedy in REME and any other organizations that have a pipeline both to and from the battlefields.

6) what about surrendering enemy units Couldnt they throw away or lay down arms that end up in the hands of baddies

7) a destabilizing program like the Jerries did in 1916 with Russian arms in a sub that were supposed to end up in the Irish hands Only now its captured US and German weapons on a their way in a Russian sub..Or a Yankee plot if GM is feeling nefarious..

anyways - I am sure you have all these angles covered -but if not these are my two cents

[Rainbow Six]

Cheers HQ. You've got some good ideas there.

The fifth one on your list reminds me of a story that a mate of mine who was in the First Gulf War (with the REME!) told me once. Apparently a shed load of Iraqi weapons and kit was smuggled back to Germany at the end of the War and shortly afterwards the German police noticed an increase in armed robberies at petrol stations...

On a serious note, my mate did say that when units moved back to the UK they had to leave any contraband in Germany as HM Customs checked returning Army units extremely thoroughly so normal practice was generally to sell the gear to someone staying on in Germany.

[Raellus]

I can't recall where I read it, but I did see an article a few months ago that suggested that the UK still had a stockpile of SLR's which ran into the tens of thousands, so I think it's highly likely that the SLR would be the most commonly found weapon amongst British forces either though neccessity or choice.

If you ever find that source, please post it here. I'd love more justification for bringing back the SLR hard.

One minor thing - whilst I agree with most of what you've said here (including the reissue of the Bren gun), IRL Sterling Armaments went bust in the late 80's, so wouldn't be in any position to start remanufacturing the AR18.

Yeah, that's a bit of a problem I conveniently overlooked. One possible way to justify it is to say that part of the company was bought out by another that would be in a position to legally begin manufacturing the AR18 in the UK. I don't know if such liscencing agreements are transferable but it might work.

Interesting views on the G11 / G36 debate also. I've always been a fan of the G36, but as I use a Version 1 timeline following the logic here I think I may have to dump it in favour of the G11.

The G36 is a sexy gun and, until recently, I included significant numbers IMTW. As a result of our discussion here, I think I will be dumping it too.

Here's a question. Would the G11's caseless ammo be easier, more difficult, or no different to manufacture after the exchange took out most industry

[Raellus]

On a side note, finding ways for marauder groups in the UK to be armed is a source of constant headaches for me...there are only so many dodgy French weapons dealers or abandoned HSF caches...I do sometimes envy those whose work is set in the US where it seems (to me at least) that both lawful and unlawful groups have relatively easy access to large amounts of weapons.

Maybe in its darkest days the British government decides to raise and arm some sort of home guard or civil defense corps or something along those lines, perhaps with newly produced AR-18s or old mothballed Lee Enfields or Sterlings (or whatever). It would only take one crooked soldier to tip off a particularly motivated and well armed criminal gang to hijack a shipment of a few hundred or even thousand weapons. This could either arm some wannabe warlords budding private army or be sold of piecemeal on the local black market (or a combination of both).

There's also the odd "lost" Spetznaz cache* that some kid finds hidden in the countryside. It's probably only a few AKs, grenades, etc., but it would allow whoever decides to use them to outgun the local police and maybe pull off a raid on its armory, netting a few more MP-5s, shotguns, sidearms, etc.

And, of course, some British soldiers would undoubtedly go rogue as soon as things started to really go south.

Add these all up and you've got a couple thousand illicit military grade arms out there across the UK.

*The original owners could have been wiped out by an SAS or army team equipped with good but incomplete counterintelligence.

[Legbreaker]

If you ever find that source, please post it here. I'd love more justification for bringing back the SLR hard.

Can't say much for the UK but I know that up until the early 90s, thousands of SMLE's were kept in storage by the Australian Army for potential issue to the population in the event of invasion. The SLR probably replaced the SMLE in this role as the Steyr come into service.
I also know that brand new SLRs were still being issued from storage up until 1991-2 (absolutely jam packed with grease to prevent rust - barrels completely blocked with the stuff). These weapons had been produced up to several decades earlier and not seen the light of day since.

Here's a question. Would the G11's caseless ammo be easier, more difficult, or no different to manufacture after the exchange took out most industry

Gut feeling is more difficult. With no brass to reload, back yard reloaders couldn't manage without the hi tech moulds and special chemical mix to hold it all together. At least with conventional cased rounds, you have a little flexibility with type of propellant. With caseless, you get the formula wrong and you're likely to end up with little more than a crumbling mess.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

A few ideas here.
1. The IRA had stockpiles of weapons largely obtained from Communist and US sources (AKs, AMD rifles, RPG-7s, M60s, M1 carbines) and they most certainly did have AR-18 in rifle and carbine form. I believe the British troops in Northern Ireland referred to it as the Widow Maker. The police in Northern Ireland had Mini-14 rifles and also I think M1 carbines. Weapons captured or bought from the Irish para-militaries could provide all sorts of exotic weapons (compared to the normal UK gear).
Also, the Irish Army changed from the L1A1 to the AUG in 1988 I think, so that too could be available for UK campaigns.

2. Heckler & Koch were bought out by Royal Ordnance in 1991 so while the AR-18 may not be available for manufacture, perhaps the HK33 was. It was certainly used by various police agencies in the UK.

3. Most nations keep some sort of war-store typically of equipment that has passed from service when newer versions have been introduced. It is highly likely that that many L1A1 rifles and L4 Bren Guns were placed into the war-stores so they would be available for emergency expansion of the military if necessary.
They may even have kept SMLE rifles, Sten Guns and Vickers Guns because some nations keep hold of these stores for several decades - look at Yugoslavia, they still had large numbers of M10 tank destroyers and T-34 tanks into the 1980s-1990s when the civil war broke out.

[Rainbow Six]

If you ever find that source, please post it here. I'd love more justification for bringing back the SLR hard.

I'll have a good hunt and see if I can track it down...wont be for a while though as I'm on holiday as off Thursday night so wont be around a PC for two and a half weeks

Yeah, that's a bit of a problem I conveniently overlooked. One possible way to justify it is to say that part of the company was bought out by another that would be in a position to legally begin manufacturing the AR18 in the UK. I don't know if such liscencing agreements are transferable but it might work.

Sounds reasonable enough...Royal Ordnance is probably a good bet for that...having a working weapons production facility in Dagenham could open up some very interesting adventure possibilities, even if it was only producing small amounts of weapons.

The G36 is a sexy gun and, until recently, I included significant numbers IMTW. As a result of our discussion here, I think I will be dumping it too.

Here's a question. Would the G11's caseless ammo be easier, more difficult, or no different to manufacture after the exchange took out most industry

Not speaking with any sort of knowledge, but like Legbreaker, gut feeling would be more difficult. My main reason for stating that is that the various versions of canon always suggested that whilst G11's themselves were not uncommon, the ammunition was rare as the round was entirely consumed.

[pmulcahy11b]

3. Most nations keep some sort of war-store typically of equipment that has passed from service when newer versions have been introduced. It is highly likely that that many L1A1 rifles and L4 Bren Guns were placed into the war-stores so they would be available for emergency expansion of the military if necessary.

Example: The large numbers of M-14s and M-21s that the US has pulled out of storage for use in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[TiggerCCW UK]

1. The IRA had stockpiles of weapons largely obtained from Communist and US sources (AKs, AMD rifles, RPG-7s, M60s, M1 carbines) and they most certainly did have AR-18 in rifle and carbine form. I believe the British troops in Northern Ireland referred to it as the Widow Maker. The police in Northern Ireland had Mini-14 rifles and also I think M1 carbines. Weapons captured or bought from the Irish para-militaries could provide all sorts of exotic weapons (compared to the normal UK gear).
Also, the Irish Army changed from the L1A1 to the AUG in 1988 I think, so that too could be available for UK campaigns.

Terrorist stock piles are a great potential source of weapons for Twilight. Over the years here no end of exotic weaponry has turned up which could be handy enough to throw a curveball to your players For example the Loughgall attack in May 1987 involved the use of three G3's, an FN FAL, two FNC's a ruger revolver (taken from a murdered police officer) and a SPAS 12 shotgun. Weapons that I've seen in phots range from AK's to Garands to G3's, FNC's, M16's, AR18's - pretty much anything you fancy. SMG's have included Stens, Thompsons, MP5's, Uzi's and Scorpions. Heavier weapons are also available, ranging from M60's through DShka's to RPG's, SAM-7's and even flamethrowers. Also, don't discount the home made weapons. The IRA in particular were very adept at improvising weapons ranging from zip gun type pistols up to huge 'barrack buster' mortars. I'll try and dig out some photos of weapon finds and scan them in here. In the mean time here are a couple of links about what the IRA decommisioned that might give you an idea of the scale of armaments they had plus a few other articles;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_arms_importation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4284048.stm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army#Weaponry_and_operations

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/paramilitary2.htm

http://amodestpublication.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/loyalist-paramilitary-improvised-machine-guns/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrack_buster

Hope that gives you some scope

[TiggerCCW UK]

Should also have added in the last post that the standard army weapons were in use over here - initially SLR's, Sterlings, Brens and GPMG's as well as a small number of Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles, mostly used in an EOD role, although I think some were used on patrol boats on Carlingford Lough, then SA-80/L85's and LSW/L86's. Standard police weapons were Ruger Service 6 revolvers, Walther PP and PPK for off duty carry, Sterlings and M1 carbines up until the early '80s when the M1's were replaced with Ruger Mini-14/AC556 - not entirely sure which model, iirc they could burst fire but not full auto. In the mid '90s the police swapped to MP-5's and HK 33's and in the early 00's the ruger was replaced with the Glock 17. Irish Army were equipped with FN FAL and Sterlings (again iirc) until they were replaced with the AUG. Army Ranger Wing used MP-5's and M16s and the Garda special branch used a variety of revolvers, shotguns and Uzi's (again iirc). I'll try and dig out some more info on that for you as well.

[headquarters]

G11 rounds

Is something like a presicion high pressure molded high explosive..not what you would be able to make in a village shop..

I'll have a good hunt and see if I can track it down...wont be for a while though as I'm on holiday as off Thursday night so wont be around a PC for two and a half weeks



Sounds reasonable enough...Royal Ordnance is probably a good bet for that...having a working weapons production facility in Dagenham could open up some very interesting adventure possibilities, even if it was only producing small amounts of weapons.



Not speaking with any sort of knowledge, but like Legbreaker, gut feeling would be more difficult. My main reason for stating that is that the various versions of canon always suggested that whilst G11's themselves were not uncommon, the ammunition was rare as the round was entirely consumed.

[Legbreaker]

It would have to be a low explosive. High explosives have a burn rate so fast they shatter rather than push.

[headquarters]

considering the British recent history

Example: The large numbers of M-14s and M-21s that the US has pulled out of storage for use in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I would be surprised indeed ifthey didnt have stockpiles of everything from Korea and up until today .SMLE,Sten;Bren ( which the TA used until not that long ago ),SLRs,AR-18s .Any govt with respect fo rit self keeps a stockpile .One involved in as many places as the British..probably keeps a stockpile for Bloc and one for Nato scenarios .You never know when supply dries up and those pesky third world dictators that keep oil flowing freely need a refill somewhere.

Just 10 years ago I bought a Kar98 Mauserfrom OUR TA armouries in a big clearance they did .I recall they had something like 60 000 of these still ,from the 250 000 taken from the Germans when they were sent home in 45, rechambered for 30-06 and used until we got the Garands.

I am hoping for the Garand clearance to happen

I saw a documentary on British arms dealers once ,where 2 city type pin stripe guys were fa-fa ing about their experiences -one was retiring from a long life in the biz -the other up and coming .Together they inspected a load of Turkish Mausers ( or were they German on Turkish contract ) 12 000 pieces iirc , all in a customs clearing house or some such -in a major UK port . Maybe it was London .


Britain is no # 3 arms dealer in the world I have been told.I suppose that should lead to the conclusion that there are stockpiles .

Also - consider the amount of firearms constantly being shipped .What would be in any given major port at any given time irl A few containers of armaments here and there for sure-also in a major shipping country like Britain .

Given the underlying mercenary bone in the Scandinavian - how many strapping British lasses would you say a trawler load of northern flank battlefield pick up AKs,RPGs,PKs,frags and ammo would be worth

Not as the same number as if it ws the other way around -but still

Throw in a couple of the Monty Python cast to keep us smiling through the dark winters with no telly ,and you should be able to get your self a few 23 mm AA guns too.

But I find part of the allure of a UK campaign the LACK of arms ,and the impro needed.Melee weapons,museum pieces,civillian guns .Lends a few got suspense points to a campaign . Bursting away the problem isnt enough in a way .

[Legbreaker]

I am hoping for the Garand clearance to happen.

Here I want a L1A1 SLR. Might have been a possibility too until about a decade ago when the governement banned any civilian weapon that was semi or fully auto, had a mag greater than 5 rounds and could actually do more than scare a rat....

I suppose I'll have to settle for the two rebuilt SMLE's with match grade barrels and top notch (for the 1950's and 60's) optics I've just inherited from my grandfather (Kings marksman with regular 1000 yard possibles in his day).

[pmulcahy11b]

You can over-generalize and say that the G-11s ammunition is solid smokeless powder -- but that's REALLY over-simplifying it. The G-11s ammunition uses a special blend of a new mix of propellant and cellulose, along with other binders and wrapped in a combustible layer of a plastic-like material (but actually a polymer). The block of propellant is also specially-shaped, to precise proportions. It's issued as a complete magazine, which is also kept in shrink-wrap until issued to the soldier. (G-11 ammunition wasn't designed for loading into magazines by hand -- HK feels the ammunition blocks will probably be damaged by an attempt to hand-load the magazine, and even very small damage will throw off the trajectory or stability of the round -- larger damage will probably jam the G-11.) The bottom of the block of propellant has a special-composition primer in a cup that is also combustible. Somehow, I can't buy it being made properly again until maybe 15-25 years after the Twilight War.