Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[perardua]

I always have to stick my head in when I see any thread about the L85A2 online, it's a bad habit of mine, but I feel I must defend its reputation!
I have been using the weapon system for four years now, including on tour in Afghanistan, and have heard no complaints from any other British troops about its reliability, nor had any problems with it myself. The improvements HK made to the rifle were considerable, and have proven very effective. The results of the reliability testing showed that in virtually all environments it performed well. Whilst you may take these results with a pinch of salt, operational experience has borne out the findings.

In my experience, the only cause of stoppages has been bent magazine lips, which is due to poor magazine care (especially since it is quite difficult to bend the metal HK magazines that replaced the plastic Radway Green ones); or using the blank firing only training magazines.

Almost all of the small arms instructors I know and have spoken about it with have also said that they believe the A2 to be one of the most reliable weapons of its type in the world, and given my less than satisfactory experience with, for example, the M4 and M16, I tend to believe them.
The major complaints with the weapon in service at the moment have nothing to do with its reliability, but more to do with the weight, and the sight rail. The sight mounting system for the SUSAT is not as sturdy as other such systems, and whilst the SUSAT itself is a very tough sight, it can lose its zero relatively easily. Even the introduction of the ACOG has not solved this, as it has meant introducing a Picatinny adaptor to be attached to the existing sight rail, creating an extra point of failure. A lot of people are calling for the sight rail to just be replaced with a Picatinny rail, as this has already been done with the handguards on weapons in frontline service.

However, the L85A1, though I've only used it twice, was utter shite. Both times I had a number of stoppages in relation to the relatively weak return spring. I only ever used it on a range, so I didn't get to experience any of the other reported faults that occur should you actually decide to move with the weapon.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I often think that the British should have told the US to shove it after World War 2 and went their own way with the EM-2. The Belgians and the Spanish both were willing to chamber weapons for the .280 round (one of the first FAL prototypes was chambered for the .280 round, as was one of the first CETME prototypes); only US political bullying stopped the .280 round from gaining more widespread acceptance. Our loss, IMHO.

Yeah, when I think about it, there are times I wonder if the Remington .223 (5.56mm Nato) is a bit underpowered when I talk to others about it. Myself, I would have gone with something like the .243 Winchester at the smallest although something in the .270 to .280 caliber range would have been fine too. Dunno what this would do to the .308 Winchester (7.62mm Nato) though.

Chuck

[waiting4something]

I always have to stick my head in when I see any thread about the L85A2 online, it's a bad habit of mine, but I feel I must defend its reputation!
I have been using the weapon system for four years now, including on tour in Afghanistan, and have heard no complaints from any other British troops about its reliability, nor had any problems with it myself. The improvements HK made to the rifle were considerable, and have proven very effective. The results of the reliability testing showed that in virtually all environments it performed well. Whilst you may take these results with a pinch of salt, operational experience has borne out the findings.

In my experience, the only cause of stoppages has been bent magazine lips, which is due to poor magazine care (especially since it is quite difficult to bend the metal HK magazines that replaced the plastic Radway Green ones); or using the blank firing only training magazines.

Almost all of the small arms instructors I know and have spoken about it with have also said that they believe the A2 to be one of the most reliable weapons of its type in the world, and given my less than satisfactory experience with, for example, the M4 and M16, I tend to believe them.
The major complaints with the weapon in service at the moment have nothing to do with its reliability, but more to do with the weight, and the sight rail. The sight mounting system for the SUSAT is not as sturdy as other such systems, and whilst the SUSAT itself is a very tough sight, it can lose its zero relatively easily. Even the introduction of the ACOG has not solved this, as it has meant introducing a Picatinny adaptor to be attached to the existing sight rail, creating an extra point of failure. A lot of people are calling for the sight rail to just be replaced with a Picatinny rail, as this has already been done with the handguards on weapons in frontline service.

However, the L85A1, though I've only used it twice, was utter shite. Both times I had a number of stoppages in relation to the relatively weak return spring. I only ever used it on a range, so I didn't get to experience any of the other reported faults that occur should you actually decide to move with the weapon.

Thanks for the info on this weapon. The only thing that turns me off about L85 system is it's a bullpup. Bullpups for me are slow to reload compared to weapons with magazines forward of the trigger. This might just be me since I'm a M16 lover. I also wonder if you can shoot the L85 from either shoulder or if you might injury your face like the AUG To me not being able to do that with the AUG makes it more a range toy then a combat weapon, but I can't confirm this, because I don't have the balls to test this out with my MSAR STG-556.

[Legbreaker]

With a little practise bullpups are just as fast to reload.
With regard to the AUG, they can be quickly and easily converted for left or right handed firing simply by switching over the ejection port cover and replacing the bolt carrier with a left (or right) handed on.
I found the AUG to be a superior weapon in all ways to the M16 and even L1A1 SLR except that it was 5.56mm rather than my personal preference, the 7.62N. With the centre of balance at the pistol grip, it can be easily and accurately fired with one hand, leaving the other clear to open doors, carry other equipment, etc, etc, etc. Of course for truely accurate fire two hands is definately prefered but one is fine for FIBUA operations.

All in all it's a weapon that takes some getting used to, but once you do it's brilliant!

[waiting4something]

With a little practise bullpups are just as fast to reload.
With regard to the AUG, they can be quickly and easily converted for left or right handed firing simply by switching over the ejection port cover and replacing the bolt carrier with a left (or right) handed on.
I found the AUG to be a superior weapon in all ways to the M16 and even L1A1 SLR except that it was 5.56mm rather than my personal preference, the 7.62N. With the centre of balance at the pistol grip, it can be easily and accurately fired with one hand, leaving the other clear to open doors, carry other equipment, etc, etc, etc. Of course for truely accurate fire two hands is definately prefered but one is fine for FIBUA operations.

All in all it's a weapon that takes some getting used to, but once you do it's brilliant!

I know you can do the left handed firing if you switch out the bolts, but that just seems to time consuming for me. In the U.S. we are trained to shoot around corners of buildings and such with exposing as little of our body as possible, or transition our weapon when patrolling which ever dierection we are covering. With the AUG you can't do that. That is my big probelm with it. The weight with bullpups is nice since it is evenly distributed.

The weird thing about the bullpups both AUG and L85 is the regular troops like and use them and the elite units don't. We had a class on the F88 from a Australian Air Force member and he talked about how great and simple it was. Then a few weeks later some of the guys I was with got to shoot(then clean of course) some of the SASR weapons. The F88 they had broke right away so only one dude shot it. But when we were cleaning the weapons a day later one of the SASR guys told us about how he thought the F88 was a POS.
I like the look of the AUG, which is why I got a MSAR. I thought I would like it over my FN FS2000, but the forward ejection on the FS2000 makes more sense to me. For me bullpups just are not as fast loading and unloading as non bullpups to me and the thought of only shooting from my right shoulder is unexceptable. It's cool to hear that people like different things though, or the world would be boring.

[Legbreaker]

There's quite a few weapons in the world that can only be fired from the right shoulder without ending up with hot brass in the face. The M60 for example is one of those weapons where if you're a left hander, you better make damn sure your sleeves are done up nice and tight!
I once saw a 25 year Warrant Officer who'd hauled the thing around as a private for a few years, then as an NCO in the SFMG platoon who missed that small detail on the range. A couple of bursts in he dropped it like it was a live snake, jumped to his feet and ripped of his shirt - a couple of dozen rather hot shells tumbled from within and he had some very nice scorch marks to his forearm.

As far as transitioning, a good Section/Squad Commander should be aware of the abilities and limitations of his men, placing them where they will naturally point towards their arc of responsibility. Everyone should of course be able to react in any direction at the drop of a hat, but if a person is naturally pointed there to begin with...

[pmulcahy11b]

There's quite a few weapons in the world that can only be fired from the right shoulder without ending up with hot brass in the face.

The M-16A1 is like that for lefties. I remember one time on the range with some ROTC cadets; one female cadet had, you might say, a big pocket for the hot brass to go down...hilarity ensued.

[perardua]

In training, it is taught that the L85 is to be fired from the right shoulder only, and whilst I have never tried to use it from the left shoulder, I imagine that there would be an issue with both hot brass (though the A2 throws it forward a lot better than the A1), and also with the fact that if you're not careful the cocking handle may be coming uncomfortably close to your face as it moves back and forth. In fact, if you look at an L85, you will see the cheek piece does not extend to the right hand side of the rifle, and that the cocking handle (which is fixed to and moves with the bolt as it cycles, comes back to where the cheek would be if firing from the left shoulder).
Also, in my experience, shooting from the right shoulder is the main, if not only shooting method taught to conventional units in the British military regardless of the weapon system, though this is probably due to the fact that as the rifle, common to all units, can only be fired from the right shoulder, it is the method that seems natural when firing other weapons. Indeed, even those few weapons were left handed firing is permitted on ranges (the pistol springs to mind), the majority of left handed shooters have become so used to firing right handed they will continue to do so.
As for the effect this has on FIBUA tactics, it does mean that shooting round corners to the left requires greater body exposure. As for patrolling, we still maintain the old adage of weapons moving with your eyes, but you can still cover your arcs without switching shoulders. You just have to move your body!
As for reloading times, I've used conventional layout weapons only a few times, mainly the M16 and M4, and find that I am slower to reload with those than I am with the L85, though I suspect that's a familiarity issue, and that practice plays a greater role in reloading speed. It might also be true that someone joining, for example, the US military, is more likely to become familiar with a conventionally laid out rifle before joining than in the UK, where for nearly every person joining the forces, their first experience with a weapon will be with the bullpup L85.
Finally, on the subject of one handed use, the L85 is extremely easy to use one handed, which comes in handy when, for example, opening doors, throwing grenades and using radioes. Of course, if you get stuck with a UGL and LLM like I did on my last tour, it becomes very front heavy very quickly! I was very jealous of all the riflemen on the Section, with their new grip-pods (vertical forward handgrips with a pop out bipod, spoken of favourably by nearly everyone).

Oh, and one final tale on the hot brass front: On an inter-Section defence range the LMG gunner sharing my trench managed to get a bursts worth of brass down the front of my shirt as I was crouching reloading the UGL (that being the day where I was carrying 96 rounds of 40mm due to the ammo nearing its expiry date). With great presence of mind (I like to think), I calmly safetied my weapon, placed it on the rim of the trench pointing down range, and then proceeded to go mental digging out four casings from my chest and stomach. At the end of the day the range supervisor asked if anyone had been injured. I said that I had, and he asked why I hadn't seen a medic at the time. My reply, naturally, was "Because I'm hard, Sergeant." He awarded our Section 10 extra points for that, and I got some new scars.

[waiting4something]

There's quite a few weapons in the world that can only be fired from the right shoulder without ending up with hot brass in the face. The M60 for example is one of those weapons where if you're a left hander, you better make damn sure your sleeves are done up nice and tight!
I once saw a 25 year Warrant Officer who'd hauled the thing around as a private for a few years, then as an NCO in the SFMG platoon who missed that small detail on the range. A couple of bursts in he dropped it like it was a live snake, jumped to his feet and ripped of his shirt - a couple of dozen rather hot shells tumbled from within and he had some very nice scorch marks to his forearm.

As far as transitioning, a good Section/Squad Commander should be aware of the abilities and limitations of his men, placing them where they will naturally point towards their arc of responsibility. Everyone should of course be able to react in any direction at the drop of a hat, but if a person is naturally pointed there to begin with...

With the AUG, I'm not talking about just hot brass though. I mean you get messed up from what I have read. Like loosing teeth and shit. Hot brass in the face is just a annoyance, but I draw the line at loosing teeth.

[waiting4something]

In training, it is taught that the L85 is to be fired from the right shoulder only, and whilst I have never tried to use it from the left shoulder, I imagine that there would be an issue with both hot brass (though the A2 throws it forward a lot better than the A1), and also with the fact that if you're not careful the cocking handle may be coming uncomfortably close to your face as it moves back and forth. In fact, if you look at an L85, you will see the cheek piece does not extend to the right hand side of the rifle, and that the cocking handle (which is fixed to and moves with the bolt as it cycles, comes back to where the cheek would be if firing from the left shoulder).
Also, in my experience, shooting from the right shoulder is the main, if not only shooting method taught to conventional units in the British military regardless of the weapon system, though this is probably due to the fact that as the rifle, common to all units, can only be fired from the right shoulder, it is the method that seems natural when firing other weapons. Indeed, even those few weapons were left handed firing is permitted on ranges (the pistol springs to mind), the majority of left handed shooters have become so used to firing right handed they will continue to do so.
As for the effect this has on FIBUA tactics, it does mean that shooting round corners to the left requires greater body exposure. As for patrolling, we still maintain the old adage of weapons moving with your eyes, but you can still cover your arcs without switching shoulders. You just have to move your body!
As for reloading times, I've used conventional layout weapons only a few times, mainly the M16 and M4, and find that I am slower to reload with those than I am with the L85, though I suspect that's a familiarity issue, and that practice plays a greater role in reloading speed. It might also be true that someone joining, for example, the US military, is more likely to become familiar with a conventionally laid out rifle before joining than in the UK, where for nearly every person joining the forces, their first experience with a weapon will be with the bullpup L85.
Finally, on the subject of one handed use, the L85 is extremely easy to use one handed, which comes in handy when, for example, opening doors, throwing grenades and using radioes. Of course, if you get stuck with a UGL and LLM like I did on my last tour, it becomes very front heavy very quickly! I was very jealous of all the riflemen on the Section, with their new grip-pods (vertical forward handgrips with a pop out bipod, spoken of favourably by nearly everyone).

Oh, and one final tale on the hot brass front: On an inter-Section defence range the LMG gunner sharing my trench managed to get a bursts worth of brass down the front of my shirt as I was crouching reloading the UGL (that being the day where I was carrying 96 rounds of 40mm due to the ammo nearing its expiry date). With great presence of mind (I like to think), I calmly safetied my weapon, placed it on the rim of the trench pointing down range, and then proceeded to go mental digging out four casings from my chest and stomach. At the end of the day the range supervisor asked if anyone had been injured. I said that I had, and he asked why I hadn't seen a medic at the time. My reply, naturally, was "Because I'm hard, Sergeant." He awarded our Section 10 extra points for that, and I got some new scars.

Wow, it's weird how different the U.K.'s and U.S.A.'s style is. I remember when I was a boot new to the fleet and we tired swinging the other direction with our body so our weapon could face a contact. We got degraded fast! Next we thought we would be smart and try to find the lefties among us to cover the right flank, that really pissed off our seniors. Shooting and patrolling opposite handed was never as natural, but it did become easier.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

With the AUG, I'm not talking about just hot brass though. I mean you get messed up from what I have read. Like loosing teeth and shit. Hot brass in the face is just a annoyance, but I draw the line at loosing teeth.

I can tell you from personal experience that the idea that you could lose teeth from firing an AUG on the opposite shoulder is pure and utter BS.
I'm a righthander and firing it from the left shoulder does cause some cases to zip past your face so close you can feel the heat and sometime you can be hit on the right cheek. It wasn't recommended practice but could be done

[waiting4something]

I can tell you from personal experience that the idea that you could lose teeth from firing an AUG on the opposite shoulder is pure and utter BS.
I'm a righthander and firing it from the left shoulder does cause some cases to zip past your face so close you can feel the heat and sometime you can be hit on the right cheek. It wasn't recommended practice but could be done

Good that is the answer to the question I was looking for.

[Legbreaker]

I'm with SSC with this. The only way you could possibly hurt yourself is if you weren't holding the weapon correctly in the first place, something that would get you injured with virtually any weapon out there.
The AUG is a good weapon. It might not suit SF types, but it's very suitable for general soldiering. The only drawback with the original models is that you couldn't mount a GL on it and so grenadiers reverted to carrying the M79 again. This has been rectified with the later models along with a few other minor modifcations.

I'm a strong fan of 7.62. I hate the M16 and most 5.56 weapons with a passion, but the F88 Steyr AUG is one of the few I've been happy to carry instead of the L1A1 SLR or M60 due to it's ease of carry, natural aiming characteristics, good balance and generally solid build. The one drawback it had was the rather short reach with a bayonet, something I rectified by fitting an SMLE bayonet to mine, doubling it's length and putting the fear of god into the recruits and trainees I was acting as enemy for (I wouldn't have been allowed to get away with in in my usual unit).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Good that is the answer to the question I was looking for.

The first few rounds were scary but after you got used to it it was just a distraction, that was still a problem for me because anything flying past that close to my eyes tends to distract me a lot. I must admit, I almost dropped the rifle when that first hot case hit my face though.
We only had the mag loaded with 10 rounds, so it was 5 rounds individual and the last 5 was in a burst all done so we would know what it was like should we ever need to fire from the opposite shoulder.
My general attitude to the experience - F**k that, I'll stick to my right shoulder

[Webstral]

I remember one time on the range with some ROTC cadets; one female cadet had, you might say, a big pocket for the hot brass to go down...hilarity ensued.

I don't understand. Perhaps someone could draw a picture Maybe we could hire someone to do a re-enactedment Catherine Bell, perhaps

Webstral