Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[Eddie]

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark to convey my meaning.

[Raellus]

Wow. And I thought I liked the movie. My uncle gave be a bootlegged VHS copy when I was like 13 and I must have watched it 50 times before going off to college. I've seen it a couple times since. I don't know why, but it just doesn't get old.

Anyone notice the similarities between the Colonial Marines in Aliens and the PMCs in Avatar

They share attitude/cockiness, powered exoskeleton things, dropships- even the spunky Latina character. There's also the heartless corporation angle. Burke and the Giovanni Ribisi character could be working for the same company (or taken the same business ethics class).

[Legbreaker]

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark to convey my meaning.

Heh, sarcasm.

Anyone notice the similarities between the Colonial Marines in Aliens and the PMCs in Avatar

They share attitude/cockiness, powered exoskeleton things, dropships- even the spunky Latina character. There's also the heartless corporation angle. Burke and the Giovanni Ribisi character could be working for the same company (or taken the same business ethics class).

ARGH! Spoilers!!!!

[copeab]

ARGH! Spoilers!!!!

If you watch the official trailer, I don't think any of that is really a spoiler.

[MajorPo]

I always liked to think of 'Mad About You' as the home life of Carter Burke. I know the dating of the series obviously wouldn't match up but the back story it adds gives a certain poignancy to his role

[Webstral]

"Aliens" remains my favorite movie of all time because there is just so much going on in it told in a quality way. I've seen the extended versions, and I have to say I'm glad the theatrical release was released as it was.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole. He received plenty of training, what with several dozen simulated drops. Training only goes so far, though. Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure. His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

Note that as a private, Gorman's not so bad. He plays well with the team when he's no longer in charge. He fights bravely. Had he been obliged to enlist and go on a few missions first, he might have made an effective lieutenant.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Have I beaten this horse into hamburger

There are other very powerful Vietnam-esque images woven througout "Aliens". The enemy is an archetype of the NLF/NVA. He has inferior technology but superior morale. He uses the terrain to his advantage, striking when the conditions are right for him. He prefers close combat that reduces the effectiveness of American firepower. His internal cohesion is superb. His commitment is superb. His willingness to absorb casualties for the sake of the mission is superb. The attack in which the enemy is crawling through the ceiling is a very nice turnabout of the underground infiltration techniques employed by the NLF/NVA.

Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message.

Webstral

P.S. Of course, there is far more going on in "Aliens" than the military commentary. I find the nuclear family and competing reproductive themes even more fascinating.

[Targan]

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

If the alien drone hadn't wiped out the dropship crew in-flight the damage the smart gunners' fire may or may not have done to the reactor's cooling systems would have been irrelevent anyway because immediately after most of the Colonial Marines are wiped out in the fight in the nest, Cpl Hicks (the ranking Marine still conscious) agreed with Ripley to head back to the Sulaco and nuke the site from orbit. So the same end result would have occurred anyway. Its like Schrodinger's cat. If the dropship hadn't crashed there would have been a nuclear explosion either from the cooling system damage (if indeed the cooling system had been damaged by the Marines' fire) or from a nuclear warhead.

The dropship crashing meant that the mission suddenly became sharply time-critical, also for a variety of reasons. The survivors were almost certain to have been overrun some time that night even if the reactor didn't go critical.

[pmulcahy11b]

I always liked to think of 'Mad About You' as the home life of Carter Burke. I know the dating of the series obviously wouldn't match up but the back story it adds gives a certain poignancy to his role

Don't insult Helen Hunt like that! I wouldn't kick her out of my bed -- I'd tie her to it!

[headquarters]

Did Camerone serve or some such Or was he just another protester

Aliens as curriculum at military academies..hehe..why not

Our system here in Norway ( not that it is anything to break out the champagne for all in all ) revolves around our institutions of military advancement ,and two types of ranks .

1 Commissions : you can get one after schooling .You start out as what we call a cadet or "aspirant" at the NCO school with the typical selection process hardships .
After that is completed -usually 2 months - there is an additional 6 -12 month schooling process.

You are then an NCO of corporal or sgt rank and a mandatory 6-12 month practition /"experience " period ensues at your unit based in country/domestic.

After that ( 12 months -2 years as an NCO) you are given a commission as either a sgt or a 2nd lt.

You can then serve in that capacity formally -but to get platoon command or company command , a furter 2 years of schooling at the national military academy for your branch is needed .You will then end up with a commission as a LT.You are then set for a career at low to mid level -but additional schooling is required to get ranks above captain.

Field commissions : meritious advancement as some call it - able minded and bodied personell might be promoted temporarily to ranks that come with the job that the unit needs filled. Example : a platoon leader might be down , and if the situation dictates ,a replacement is made form say the 2nd LT nr 2 in the platoon -even though he has not gone through military academy until a formal replacement can be deployed .
Or say a private makes squad leader the same way .

As a rule no officer or NCO without "operational experience" ( tours abroad or the whole military academy thing ) are allowed command in combat operations .

Exceptions happen all the time though - including one of my PLT leaders back in 97-98 in my second tour .

He was a cronie of the COY cmdr -and landed his job that way .I would have had no problem with that if he hadnt been a ..well incompetent .

( After all - he was a welcome change from the previous LT who had to be removed from his position -highly competent but just crazy / no judgement).

"Aliens" remains my favorite movie of all time because there is just so much going on in it told in a quality way. I've seen the extended versions, and I have to say I'm glad the theatrical release was released as it was.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole. He received plenty of training, what with several dozen simulated drops. Training only goes so far, though. Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure. His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

Note that as a private, Gorman's not so bad. He plays well with the team when he's no longer in charge. He fights bravely. Had he been obliged to enlist and go on a few missions first, he might have made an effective lieutenant.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Have I beaten this horse into hamburger

There are other very powerful Vietnam-esque images woven througout "Aliens". The enemy is an archetype of the NLF/NVA. He has inferior technology but superior morale. He uses the terrain to his advantage, striking when the conditions are right for him. He prefers close combat that reduces the effectiveness of American firepower. His internal cohesion is superb. His commitment is superb. His willingness to absorb casualties for the sake of the mission is superb. The attack in which the enemy is crawling through the ceiling is a very nice turnabout of the underground infiltration techniques employed by the NLF/NVA.

Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message.

Webstral

P.S. Of course, there is far more going on in "Aliens" than the military commentary. I find the nuclear family and competing reproductive themes even more fascinating.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Personally I agree with you, I'm a little tired of Cameron wishing he could relive Vietnam. He wasn't there so he should just get over it. I will likely wait until Avatar is in the weekly rental bin at my local video store.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message...

Apparently, Australian Army officers from both the Royal Military College and the Officer Cadet School were obliged to watch the 1960s movie 'Zulu' for the same type of reason. I don't know when the practice stopped but since the advent of the Australian Defence Force Academy, it's likely the movie is no longer used to illustrate officers in command.

[Legbreaker]

We were shown one of the Blackadder Goes Forth episodes at Canungra (jungle warfare) because of the extremely accurate way they delivered orders. Seems the writers had done their research.
It was probably the only half hour of the entire course that wasn't crushingly difficult.

[headquarters]

Sharps Rifles

the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers 2nd battallion apparently had some use of the series Sharps Rifles with Sean Bean in educational purposes .

I remember seeing one or two of these when on exchange there at platoon seargent selction - selection course . ( Pre selection )

Selection was in Wales somewhere called the Breacons I believe .

[Eddie]

Wow...in one thread I've had my country insulted for being over-aggressive, trigger-lovers and now had my profession insulted as being tragically flawed for not doing it X way and being riddled with incompetents because they chose to go to college and be leaders first instead of followers first.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole.

Really Because the US as a whole, and the Army in particular are still stuck in the way we did things in Vietnam

Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure.

Because you've worked with so many West Point graduates, Web For the record, I just gave up a company command in the 25th Infantry where I had four 2LTs that I rated. The most competent, tactically sound one I had was a West Point graduate from 2008.

His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

First of all, his job as the commander on the ground is be where he can best control his units and keep SA of the battlefield. The TTP of having the PL in a Bradley/Tank/APC/giant-flying-super-ninja-bot, where he has access to all of the command and control and asset coordination capabilities is a pretty common one. Then, the PSG gets on the ground and fights the fight while the PL controls the fight. That is what Gorman is supposed to do in a fight. However he can best accomplish that is his call. Armchair general it all you want, his platoon, his decision.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience.

Trust and effective command What about just basic undisciplined individuals that don't want to listen

Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

All because he's not prior-enlisted. That would have solved everything and negated all of the constraints that he had enforced on him and thereby passed down to them.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm so sick of hearing this. As a Company Commander, with 8 years prior enlisted experience to my 4 years (in April) of commissioned time, this statement is the most frequently stated bullshit that I hear. Enlisted service does absolutely nothing for an officer other than give him an instant ability to relate to his Joes. I do 2 years as a supply clerk, drop an OCS packet, and get commissioned as an Infantry officer. Or an Aviator. Or an Intel officer. My prior enlisted time really helps. I know so much more. He can be a shithead just as easily or be shit hot. In fact, two of the most competent butterbars I've ever worked with or had work for me were 2LTs straight out of West Point, Infantry OBC, and Ranger School, thrown into a platoon and told "Run with it." One of them in combat. One of them in garrison.

Don't bother replying. I've said my piece. I've not attacked anyone personally. And I'm not obtuse enough to think that anything I say here is going to make a switch click in any of your heads and bring about a miraculous, "Oh, yeah, I didn't see it that way before." However, I will refer you back to my intro post in the Military Service thread from several months ago and the fact that I'm a few months shy of 12 years of Active Federal Service in the US Army...and a product of it's horrendous commissioning system.

Yeah, I think I'm done here now.

Deuces.

[Targan]

Wow. So Eddie, why don't you tell us how you really feel

[kato13]

Eddie sorry that your feel insulted. I want you to know you have my respect man.

I often feel insulted on this board as well. It sucks. I really blame it all on one person who has demonstrated very strong anti American feelings. Given the trends I have been seeing in posting I feel eventually he is going to lead to the death of this board.

It is a shame really.