Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[copeab]

Heinlein, in Starship Troopers (and perhaps elsewhere), presented the idea that no one should be allowed to be an officer without first seeing combat. The problem, of course, is that you can't really do this in a peacetime army. The skills that makes one a great wartime officer aren't quite the same as what makes one a great peacetime officer, either, so you can't really be sure with a peacetime army which officers are really fit for combat command and which aren't until the shooting starts.

[copeab]

The dropship crashing meant that the mission suddenly became sharply time-critical, also for a variety of reasons. The survivors were almost certain to have been overrun some time that night even if the reactor didn't go critical.

IIRC, there was a minimum time for Bishop to get to the transmitter station (the link to the command building also being severed by the crash) and pilot the second drop ship down.

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

[copeab]

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone.

On reflection, Apone doesn't come off so well -- he does a poor job of being a senior NCO faced with a poor officer.

[Targan]

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail

[Webstral]

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

Webstral

[copeab]

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail

I think it was the first Marine to get attacked (Deitrich) who said "Maybe they don't show up on IR", looked directly at one curled up in a wall and turned away, not seeing it.

I'm not quite sure what could have been done about drop ship security. You really couldn't leave any of the Marines behind to guard it (the contingent was already small enough) and, at the time, it seemed like a better idea to have the ship near the colony rather than parked off in the wilderness.

[copeab]

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

It was either stated or implied that Burke had personally selected Gorman for the mission while the mess hall scene made it clear that Gorman was a new CO for the squad (while other comments made it clear that at least some of the soldiers had served with each other).

[fightingflamingo]

Eddie - sorry you feel that way. I agree with both you and Web about different aspects of the commisioning process in the US Army (19 yr E7 here). I think on balance the process works pretty well in the active component. In the reserve component the OCS grads tend to be better at the O-1 level, not so much because they can relate to their joes better, but rather because they've seen and know how to use their NCO's more effectively, without micro managing them. The micro managing of senior NCO's is something that I think happens with the current US commisioning system, that detracts from the quality of O-1's as they learn to work this out.

That said, the current commisioning system while structured on a the same model as was used during Vietnam, now produces a vastly superior product. Those of us with enlisted service will always be detractors of 2nd LT's, especially those of us who serve or have served as PSG's, and have an active hand in mentoring 2nd LT's into 1st LT's and future company command.

@ Kato - I agree that the tenor of the board has gone down hill, and I think I relate that to the same individual who doesn't seem to care, or get his own offensive behavior. And for my part as an American I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War, as an American I bear moral responsibilty for the fictional global genocide portrayed by GDW, it was my fictional government which prolonged the fictional Sino-Soviet War by supplying the fictional Chinese government with arms and other war material so that they could continue to resist the fictional Soviet Invasion. Further, my fictionally democratically elected government supported the fictional West German militarists intent on unification of their great homeland by force of arms, which began as passive support, and ended with a fictional invasion of the DDR, and Poland lead by my fictionally great nation, and it's obviously fictional allies. This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

[Legbreaker]

...I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War...

And so you should!

Seriously though almost every participant had a hand in starting the war either by direct action, or lack of political will.

[Webstral]

Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

I'm here to publicly acknowledge that I went too far with this one. Gentlemen, I apologize for dragging down the tone of the board with this example of name-calling. While I maintain that the commissioning process is in need of reform, there is no defensible reason to denegrate West Point graduates by calling them "ring-bearers" or to denegrate non-prior service OCS graduates by calling them "90-day wonders". Without attempting to defend or explain any other part of my argument, I want to acknowledge that I chose my words in poor spirit and apologize for showing my less-than-respectful side on the board.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well gentlemen there's certainly a lot to mull over in this thread.
From what I had seen in the past and one of the reason I decided to join this forum was that people could express themselves without being too offensive and without others being so sensitive that they would take offense.
I know myself that I'm not particularly clever at saying something without it appearing cold,cynical, too blunt or borderline antagonistic - I accept that my personality is retarded and that I don't express myself well enough at times so I apologize for any ill-will that I may have caused for the past, present and the future.

However, this last lot of exchanges shows that there seems to be a whole lot of angst floating around the forum. While I have seen some things that are anti-American, I've seen a few that are very pro-American and by default come across as being anti-someone else.
I'm not saying that should balance everything out and I'm not saying that it's right or corect, what I'm saying is that people should pull their head in and think about how their words will be taken before they submit the post.
Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.

Kato has a tough enough time as it is, you should all know that from the message he posted before about his personal life. He doesn't need more trouble. If this comes across as the school master chastising the students, maybe that's what we need, a good kick in the arse to say "stop behaving like arsehats."
So please gentlemen, consider if your words may be offensive before you post but hand in hand with that, readers should stop reading between the lines to try and find anything potentially offensive in what has been written.

I'll climb off the soapbox now, flame me at your leisure

[kato13]

Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.

You are very right my "death of the forum" quote is not a colorful exaggeration.

Posts by unique users have been trending way down since the DC group vs canon argument started. We have gone from an average of over 65 users per 500 posts down to 38. The dominance of the top 12 or so posters has also vastly increased. We have moved from the top 12 most active posters providing ~55% of the posts to currently providing 82% of the posts, 90% if you go to the top 15. (note all of my posts are excluded from the calculations above as I have been the most dominate poster for the forum's run).

With over 25 years of message board experience this looks to me like the beginning of a death spiral where only those with the strongest stomach will remain posting here. The rumblings of new forums being created are starting, and the factionalism that comes with them will be close behind.

[Targan]

This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

I'm confused about this part of an otherwise funny rant. Are you upset with an Australian poster I don't recall saying too much that was offensive lately but if I have I apologise.

Following Kato's pronouncement that the DCWG's work would be considered canon on this forum I had intended to keep a low profile because I thought the pronouncement was a form of censorship and would have a very negative impact. As it turned out I was wrong and things seem to have been fine around here for weeks. Perhaps I was wrong and things aren't as fine as they seem. That's a pity for me because I was feeling comfortable posting here again but it would be a great deal more unfortunate for the forum as a whole. If Kato pulls the pin then we're all back in the internet wilderness again.

Lets sort this stuff out. If issues can't be resolved through private messages then Kato should take things to the next level and caution or ban posters, if that means still having a forum. If I'm the problem then ban me, please. No individual poster is bigger than the forum and no one deserves to feel insulted and have no resolution to accumulated bad blood. I hope I'm not the problem and this ends up being my final post but if so, VIVA LA FORUM!

[Targan]

I wonder if these anti-American statements are meant in a mostly harmless, playfully teasing way or if they are meant to be provocative.

From an Australian's point of view, absolutely. That tends to be the way the Australian sense of humour works. It is well known inside Australia that as a culture we tend to suffer from "tall poppy syndrome". I doubt very much any members of this forum are truly anti-American, if they were why would they involve themselves in a group that is numerically dominated by Americans

I sometimes wonder how Australia is portrayed in popular American culture. I was playing Grand Theft Auto 4 the other day and in a radio advertisement in-game Australians were referred to as being "funny but militarilly inept". I was simultaneously amused and insulted by that, and it caused me to feel a bit defensive. I thought to myself "there are only 21 million or so of us and the proportion of GDP Australia spends on its military is comperable to other western nations".

I think that on the whole Australians are very fond of Americans in general. Sometimes we get upset at the perception that decisions made by the US Government sometimes affect the rest of the world negatively but hey, if China was the world's dominating superpower I expect we would be a lot less happy. Another issue that Australians may have is that American culture tends to be a bit overpowering as a result of cheap US media exports. Anybody in Australia who has a big problem with that has the option to not watch TV or visit cinemas. None of these things should affect the relationships between posters on this forum. Our mutual respect and long history as stalwart brothers in arms are much stronger factors in our relationship as brother cultures.

In closing I say be cool companjeros, be cool.

Edit: If this post is more a part of the problem than part of the solution feel free to delete it Kato. I don't want to make things worse.

[Legbreaker]

As one of the top 12 most active (I think), I have to say I've increased activity of late. Wouldn't this increase in post rate skew results somewhat

NOTE!
No comment I ever make is intentionally made to insult others. Here in Australia we have a culture of banter and teasing - the more we like somebody the harder we do it and the more we expect to receive it back!

For example, you might call your best mate a wanker and mean it with the greatest of respect and affection.