Sawed off M79

[ArmySGT.]

I believe that refers to a deleted post from somebody seeking to buy or sell weapons...

Is that what it is Seemed a non-sequitur.

[Raellus]

Personally, if I have to carry a shotgun or grenade launcher, I'll take one that's actually capable of doing something to an opponent who's not already standing on my toes. Sure the cut down GL is cool and all that, but it's usefulness is severely limited and I can't imagine any professional foot mobile solider wanting to carry what is essentially one shot dead weight.

Er, what Is that "professional" bit a shot at SOG Maybe the context under which cut-down M79s were carried/used wasn't clear. The SOG teams that used the cut-down M79 would literally bump into NVA patrols, on occasion. So yes, the weapon was meant for close in work. In thick jungle, typical engagement ranges were often at around 10-20m. For that, you don't really need a full-sized GL or a 7.62mm (NATO) battle rifle. To give you an example that hopefully transcends simple jingoism, that's why a lot of ASAS and NZSAS either carried M-16s, 9mm SMGs, or cut-down FALs (which produced a significant amount of recoil and muzzle flash and often necessitated a forward pistol grip in order to control the weapon) while on LRPs in Vietnam.

[Graebarde]

Well, there is LTL rounds for the 203: Bean bag, rubber, and that sort. Rubber rounds do rather well on feral dogs.

'06 is MUCH better on feral dogs though!! FB

[Panther Al]

'06 is MUCH better on feral dogs though!! FB

True... But a 40mm grenade launcher is so much more fun!

[Legbreaker]

Of course not. It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me to carry something that's really only useful at almost point blank range when for a few hundred grams more you can have a weapon that's useful out to 400 metres.
I suppose if the individual carrying it is only operating in extremely close terrain such as jungle or highly built up urban it might make some sense, but personally I'd still prefer the full sized weapon, just in case a longer shot is required.
But that's just my opinion.

As for cut down rifles, yes, I can understand that. I served with one man who got in trouble on numerous occasions for taking off the barrel of his SLR with a hacksaw half an inch in front of the gas plug. Longer range accuracy was problematic at best, but the shorter weapon saved his life at least once.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well I suppose it helps to remember that the cutdown M79 was very much a specialist tool for a limited environment. It certainly wasn't intended for mainstream work and from what I've read in the Osprey Men-At-Arms book, it was specifically meant as a break-contact weapon - one 40mm buckshot round towards the enemy to discourage them from following up the patrol as the patrol was attempting to leave the area.

[Fusilier]

It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me

Maybe... because you're not SOG.

: D

[Legbreaker]

Who here is
As for breaking contact, wouldn't a couple of hand grenades be just as good Or simply spraying the area with automatic fire
Obviously somebody thought cutting the M79 down was a good idea, but there just seems to be many other more flexible options. Perhaps it was done as a mission specific thing and only used on a couple of occasions.
Perhaps we'll never know...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think their reasoning was that in close jungle, hand grenades could be less effective for numerous reasons. It seems that the 40mm buckshot was used as the major disincentive to the VC/NVA to follow up the patrol, I don't know if they actually cared if they killed any enemy with it.
They probably felt the psychological aspect of what is basically a 40mm shotgun shell going off, making a hell of a racket and tearing up the leaves, would be enough to convince the VC/NVA not to follow them.

[HorseSoldier]

Hand grenades were problematic in a lot of the junk that passed for terrain in Vietnam, where bamboo, vines, and other vegetation could be thick enough that a good toss with a grenade could still result in it landing basically at your feet. That's not a universal description of the terrain in Vietnam, but both to look for the other side and to maximize their own stealth and security, LRRPs and SOG and whatnot tended to wind up in the thickest, ugliest terrain the country had to offer.

I think the Vietnam era iteration of the Australian Peel break contact drill also avoided hand grenades and relied on each guy in the column executing a magazine dump and then moving for the same reasons.

[ArmySGT.]

Who here is
As for breaking contact, wouldn't a couple of hand grenades be just as good Or simply spraying the area with automatic fire
Obviously somebody thought cutting the M79 down was a good idea, but there just seems to be many other more flexible options. Perhaps it was done as a mission specific thing and only used on a couple of occasions.
Perhaps we'll never know...

Because when they mean bumping into an enemy patrol AKA Contact, they don't mean just seeing each other. They mean that in the dense foliage of the jungle; that one could literally reach out, and touch the enemy.

A M79 buckshot round is gonna upset that enemy soldier two feet away; and the next one, six feet away. While the patrol then hauls ass in the opposite direction, pulling the pin on a four second delay, fragmentation grenade.

When the column is reversed, and the former pointman passes the trail with "last man, last man!"; the trail then pulls the pulls the fuse igniter for the 60 second fuse on a claymore, with detonation cord, and a blasting cap in the fuse well.

That was a pursuit denial munition then, now their are purpose built pursuit denial munitions.

[Panther Al]

Who here is
As for breaking contact, wouldn't a couple of hand grenades be just as good Or simply spraying the area with automatic fire
Obviously somebody thought cutting the M79 down was a good idea, but there just seems to be many other more flexible options. Perhaps it was done as a mission specific thing and only used on a couple of occasions.
Perhaps we'll never know...

A Hyper Cut Down blooper makes great sense: for an admittedly limited target environment. Picture it less as a grenade launcher and more as a hand held claymore: Patrol in dense bush bumps into the other guys. Point guy gets off a burst - being that he is a SOG type, his time lost to surprise is much shorter than the other poor bastards - and becomes one with the dirt. Guy behind him, having an extra moment, and having a plan already in place for what to do in this situation - whips out the thing, aims it in the general direction - and by this time #1 is in the ground, and bang - picture a claymore going off at heads height. True: Not gonna be good for past 50m or so - and aiming is pointless. But then the badguys are not at 50m, they are at 5dm. It really doesn't matter how bad the aim is at this point. After the loud bang, and the other patrol is busy getting nailed by a hail of shot, the patrol - again, executing a planned response, falls back to regroup and decide what to do now.

Its not meant to be a man-killer: Its meant to do something much more important.... buy time on your terms.

[Legbreaker]

What's the spread likely to be

[StainlessSteelCynic]

What's the spread likely to be

Lifted from a wiki page

40mm M576 APers contains twenty 24 gram metal pellets. Normal dispersion pattern of the M576 will put 13 of 20 pellets in a 1.5 meter circle at 40 meters. The remaining 7 pellets could be anywhere.

[Raellus]

Lifted from a wiki page

40mm M576 APers contains twenty 24 gram metal pellets. Normal dispersion pattern of the M576 will put 13 of 20 pellets in a 1.5 meter circle at 40 meters. The remaining 7 pellets could be anywhere.

I reckon the spread would be greater at that range- at any range, really- if the round is fired from a short-barrelled Blooper.