British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[Ironside]

I am working on expanding information on the British Army and this is a first draft of a part of it. I would be grateful for any comments or criticisms anyone cares to leave.

British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

The British Army has never been a particularly visible part of British society, outside of garrison towns, except during a major war; so many minor wars and actions have taken place that there is no authoritative list of them. During 'peacetime', e.g. when military actions and casualties are not front page news, equipment for the army is not a priority. The British Army has learned therefore to avoid throwing anything away if they can possibly help it. Obsolete or surplus equipment can be found squirreled away in obscure stores and depots which proved a great boon to the British Army during the Twilight War.

Artillery is a huge consumer of ammunition; no commander in modern history has ever had enough smoke for instance. When the 155mm ammunition began to run short old 5.5" guns were taken from storage and the School of Artillery Trials Unit to make use of the large stocks of 5.5" ammunition remaining in storage. The 51mm mortar L10 was designed from the outset to be able to use the extensive stocks of 2" mortar ammunition.

Although MBTs became rarer on the battlefield, anti-tank capability was still most important. As the supply of MILAN missiles dwindled the BAT Wombat L6 returned to the fray. Likewise, instead of the LAW 80, the 84mm 'Carl Gustav' was brought back into service; to the severe disgruntlement of those tasked with carrying it's 14.2kg empty weight!

The armoured units would have been in direr straits without the Chieftains of the war reserve; some of them with the Chieftain/Challenger Rearmament programme, some without. Even the remaining 1950's vintage Saracen and Saladin armoured cars were used to great effect.

Ironside

[dragoon500ly]

Looks good so far, and I'm looking forward to further posts!

Its always funny how much "older" equipment remains stashed away in warehouses and depots. I can name several posts in the US that still had stockpiles of M-1 Garands and BARS, still in the original crates, and still waiting to be issued.

[helbent4]

Looks good so far, and I'm looking forward to further posts!

Its always funny how much "older" equipment remains stashed away in warehouses and depots. I can name several posts in the US that still had stockpiles of M-1 Garands and BARS, still in the original crates, and still waiting to be issued.

Lee,

A friend said he saw thousands of US-made FN-FALs (built as the T47) in storage back in the 90's. However, I seem to recall at that point when bases were closed and facilities reorganised a lot of the old gear was disposed of. Another friend who had been a guerrilla in Africa said M14 rifles started arriving in bulk at that time via clandestine aid and the black market and were much preferred over the Kalashnikovs. The former were well-maintained and well-made, while the latter were the worn-out dregs from Central and Eastern European arsenals.

That said, the massive base-closures and disposal happened in response to the end of the Cold War and largely formed part of the "peace dividend". As T2K is an alternative timeline, it's quite possible this course wasn't taken and all or most of the old ordnance is still around!

Tony

[Adm.Lee]

Looks good so far, and I'm looking forward to further posts!

Its always funny how much "older" equipment remains stashed away in warehouses and depots. I can name several posts in the US that still had stockpiles of M-1 Garands and BARS, still in the original crates, and still waiting to be issued.

Heh. I read of a pre-WW2 US infantryman who was at Fortress Monroe (or some other Virginia-area coastal fort). While renovating or remodeling some part of the fort, they broke through a stone or cemented wall to find several cases of factory-fresh Civil War-era rifled muskets, still in preservative grease. The author was still pissed that he couldn't keep one, but they were sold to the officers instead.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the British 25-pounder field gun recalled to service either because I think the British were still producing ammunition into the 1980s for it to sell to former Commonwealth countries that still used it as their main artillery.

Given the situation in Northern Ireland at the time, the British Army apparently had a very large fleet of Saracen APCs but there are other vehicles that would probably have been still in use even though they were discontinued in the real world such as the Fox armoured car (withdrawn from service in 1994 I think)

As for war stores, I would suspect that there would be huge stocks of L1A1s, Sterlings and 7.62mm Brens along with lesser stocks of SMLEs, Stens and Vickers Guns. By way of an example, here in Australia the army was disposing of war-stored SMLE rifles as late as 1991 or 92 in Western Australia (I don't know about the other states).

[Legbreaker]

There was, and to my knowledge still is, a large warehouse of SMLE rifles stored up near the Queensland/NSW border. I can't say for sure, but I would guess that there are/were Brens, Vickers, Owens, Austens, etc to be found there too.
Our Company armoury even had an old Martini Henry rifle which got pulled out and put on display every year for the Company ball.

[helbent4]

Leg,

For that matter, a friend of mine related how when they were clearing out some basement rooms at a militia armoury here in Vancouver they found uniforms and kit dating back to WWII.

A different friend said his reserve unit saved weapons that had been written off or otherwise forgotten. Like FN C1A1s and C2A1s that had been rebuilt, 81mm mortars that were forgotten when the regiment (the Seaforth's) got rid of it's mortar platoon, C6 GPMGs and C9 SAWs that had been declared inoperative but rebuilt over time by bored armourers.

For that matter, the cadets apparently use FNs (C1A1s) and SMLEs chambered for .22 ammunition, and the Northern Rangers certainly use the SMLE through the north.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

For that matter, the cadets apparently use FNs (C1A1s) and SMLEs chambered for .22 ammunition...

Tony

In my T2K timeline, the various governments have weapons like these farmed out to young teenagers and hunters.

[Legbreaker]

Although the letter of the law says certain weapons and classes of weapons are illegal and through a number of amnesties, buyback schemes, etc they've all been removed from public hands, you can bet on finding all sorts of goodies squirrelled away out of sight.
Here in Australia, semiautomatic rifles and shotguns have been illegal (or HEAVILY restricted) since the early 90's. I personally know of a few caches here and there though of unregistered weapons which if found by the police would get the owners a serious stint in prison.
It's funny really that the weapons themselves are illegal, but the ammo is still freely available (provided you have a liciense). Even some parts can be had fairly easily over the counter.
Depending where in the country one is, sometimes you can get away with carrying an officially illegal firearm - the police themselves in outback (aka country) areas often have a few tucked away for hunting on their days off (sometimes obtained when handed in by concerned citizens for "destruction".

[Rainbow Six]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the British 25-pounder field gun recalled to service either because I think the British were still producing ammunition into the 1980s for it to sell to former Commonwealth countries that still used it as their main artillery.

Given the situation in Northern Ireland at the time, the British Army apparently had a very large fleet of Saracen APCs but there are other vehicles that would probably have been still in use even though they were discontinued in the real world such as the Fox armoured car (withdrawn from service in 1994 I think)

As for war stores, I would suspect that there would be huge stocks of L1A1s, Sterlings and 7.62mm Brens along with lesser stocks of SMLEs, Stens and Vickers Guns. By way of an example, here in Australia the army was disposing of war-stored SMLE rifles as late as 1991 or 92 in Western Australia (I don't know about the other states).

Fox was indeed withdrawn in the mid 1990's IRL, but in a Twilight Timeline (particularly v1), I think it's highly likely that it would have stayed in service, particularly with the Territorial Army Recce units. You'd also likely see a number of Ferrets.

As well as older equipment remaining in use, there's also the possibility that newer equipment might have come into service earlier if the Cold War had carried on (for example IRL Challenger 2 didn't go into service until 1998, although first deliveries took place in 1994). In my T2K World I also brought forward the introduction of the A2 version of the L85 so that it came into service in time to equip front line units (as a knock on effect this obviously led to increased numbers of A1's in reserve stocks).

You're right about the Army having a number of different vehicles because of the situation in Ulster...off the top of my head I would expect that as well as the Saracens some Humber Pigs and Shorland armoured cars (Long Wheel Base Land Rovers fitted with some armour plating and a machine gun turret) might make an appearance on the mainland during 1998 and 1999. Tigger may well be able to suggest others...

Just a few thoughts...

Cheers

[Canadian Army]

Leg,
For that matter, the cadets apparently use FNs (C1A1s) and SMLEs chambered for .22 ammunition, and the Northern Rangers certainly use the SMLE through the north.

Tony

The Cadets Canada and Canadian Rangers use the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I in the .303.

[Targan]

I personally know of a few caches here and there though of unregistered weapons which if found by the police would get the owners a serious stint in prison.

Same here.

[dragoon500ly]

Back in 1943 the US Army Ordnance Dept was looking for a very heavily armored tank to use for attacking heavily fortified enemy positions as well as being invelnerable against all known enemy tanks. It was to have a maximum armor protection of 8 inches (300mm) and was to be armed with the newly developed T5E1 105mm cannon.

Five pilot models of the T95 Gun Motor Carriage were to be built, but due to their complex construction, only two were built by March 1945, when the project was canceled. One was destroyed by fire during one of its trail runs, one is at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland and the third is at Fort Knox, Kentucky. That's right, three models were built although the official records stated two.

When I first heard this story, I was able to look at the one on display at Ft. Knox, and I've seen photos of the remains of the burned out one. Never have had the chance to get to APG, but I have been told that there is one on display there, near the Elefant.

The story goes on that the third one was located inside a set of older warehouses that were being torn down. So the US Army managed to lose a 95-ton prototype....

Kind of makes you wonder just what is stored in government warehouses

[Rockwolf66]

Looks good so far, and I'm looking forward to further posts!

Its always funny how much "older" equipment remains stashed away in warehouses and depots. I can name several posts in the US that still had stockpiles of M-1 Garands and BARS, still in the original crates, and still waiting to be issued.

Funny my shitbird doesn't belive me when I told him that Force Recon still had usable High Standard Supressed pistols in their inventories as late as 1997.

According to him he had worked with recon and all they used were M16s and Beretta M9s.

Even though i found the High Standard to be front heavy it pointed well and I wouldn't want to be a local jack rabbit.


As far as British Equipment goes I would not be very suprised if they were not improvising various munitions. heck you would probably see the few Omani vetrans left acting as senior advisors to the home guard and distributing such nice info as how to use a cup of gasoline to get longer range out of a mortar without blowing the tube.

[Legbreaker]

Not sure if that would do much for the range tables - hard to hit a target with an indirect weapon if you don't have the maths ready...