British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[Legbreaker]

Fortunatley I avoided combat, but I've trained intensively with the L1A1, M16A1, F88 and M60 (plus a few other less relevant systems). I'd have to say that I like the L1A1 for it's hitting power and solid contruction (now there's a weapon you can really smack somebody about with!), and the M60 is definately my favourite (what's not to like about a belt fed machinegun), but for general patrolling and assault, the Steyr is the better weapon (note I'm ignoring the M16).

In it's base form (without accessories) it's perfectly balanced as I've already indicated around the pistol grip. It can be fired accurately one handed (although I'd advise tucking the stock into the shoulder anyway) which leaves the off hand to do other tasks such as open doors, carry equipment, etc.

The 30 round mags are ok, certainly better than the 20 rounds of the L1A1, and the weapon of course is capable of automatic fire. It is however not suited to automatic due to it's light weight - still, it's a good option to have for close range "panic" fire.

[LBraden]

The L1A1 was a good weapon, one of the downsides of the new L85 is that it has a plastic butt, which is relevant to this:

During one of the numerous riots that happened in Northern Ireland in around 1982 my father was involved in a bit of defending, well... during said riot he got a hurling ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurling ) stick though this plexi-glass riot helmet shield, left him with a good cut above his left eye.
Now, being sensible the army sent him to hospital to get patched up, except someone forgot to remove his ammo, so under SOP, no anaesthetic, which meant my father had 5 stitches with no pain relief.
So when he got discharged some bright spark passed him a new helmet and told him to get back to the fight.
To the day my father died, he was sure he got the bloke back, by swinging the rifle round and picking this bloke off the ground by usage of his groin region, my father is sure of this as 1) The gentlemen was wearing black balaclava, black bomber jacket, cammo trousers and 2) carrying a hurling stick.

Only problem he had, was he broke the wooden butt of the SLR, and hated the new plastic one because you could not "slightly alter" the butt to fit your shoulder properly, with a simple bit of wood carving

But I will say this, if ya want to stop a raging bull, and your marksman just put 10 rounds in its head with his SLR, make sure the Gimpy is loaded.

[helbent4]

But I will say this, if ya want to stop a raging bull, and your marksman just put 10 rounds in its head with his SLR, make sure the Gimpy is loaded.

Lee,

A friend told me about how he was on a winter exercise in the bush with Cadets and was charged by a starving wolverine. The beast was so low that only the top of the skull was visible above the snow as it humped furiously towards them. The .22LR bullets fired from their rechambered Lee-Enfields only enraged it without penetrating the skull. The soldier/instructor knew to aim lower and was armed with an FN, finally stopping it.

Tony

[perardua]

I've never fired a bullpup weapon, so...how does a bullpup compare to a conventional rifle And has anyone here used one in combat

I've spent my entire military career (pretty much) armed with a bullpup rifle in the form of the L85A2, apart from some brief range days with Diemaco's, M4s and M16s at various times. I have used the L85 on operations (in my case also fitted with a UGL), and appreciated the compactness of the weapon (especially in vehicle based patrolling, and the limited amount of urban work we did), as well as the fact that, like the Steyr, it's very easy to use one handed while performing other tasks with the left hand.

The inability to fire from the left shoulder has never been a problem in my experience, but then my AO was mostly flat desert anyway. Something that was also brought to my attention is that for a weapon 785mm/30.9 inches long, you get 518mm/20.4 inches of barrel. Compared to the M16A2, which according to Wikipedia is 1010mm/39.625 inches long but with a 508mm/20 inch barrel, the advantages of the bullpup design in reducing overall weapon length without the loss of barrel length are obvious.

I also wonder if the lack of experience with firearms in the majority of the general UK population helped with the adoption of a bullpup design - the majority of people have never used a 'conventional' layout weapon anyway, so recruits joining the armed forces will have their first experience with an L85. I know that when I have later used rifles like the M16 series on exchanges and suchlike I have not grasped the layout as quickly as someone used to a conventionally laid out rifle might.

Unrelated to the bullpup design, but just as a general point, the weapon is unfortunately rather heavy, especially when fitted with a SUSAT (now being replaced by a combined ACOG/reflex sight) and LLM (visible/IR laser/torch thingy), and even more so when you stick a UGL on the end. However, this does mean that the barrel suffers relatively little climb in automatic fire (not that there is ever normally any good reason to be firing bursts of any length), and with the addition of the ops issue vertical foregrip/bipod, makes it very accurate.

[perardua]

Oh, and the L7A2 GPMG is the king of machineguns. But that's not really relevant!

[dragoon500ly]

Oh, and the L7A2 GPMG is the king of machineguns. But that's not really relevant!

It is relevant because the truth hurts!!!

The Belgian FN-MAG design, and its clones, the L7A2 and the M-240 have to be the best machineguns, almost as good as a M-2HB....and they will probably soldier on longer than the famous "Ma Deuce"!

[perardua]

It's better than a .50 purely because I can carry and fire it without assistance! Apparently Heckler & Koch is doing an update of the GPMG for the British forces, made from significantly lighter materials and with a picatinny rail on the top cover, or at least so I read in the various trade magazines we have in the crew room.

[dragoon500ly]

It's better than a .50 purely because I can carry and fire it without assistance! Apparently Heckler & Koch is doing an update of the GPMG for the British forces, made from significantly lighter materials and with a picatinny rail on the top cover, or at least so I read in the various trade magazines we have in the crew room.

Granted, the GPMG is can be carried and fired by one man...

But there is still something, special about setting up a Ma Deuce on a tripod, setting the H&T...and loading a 500 round belt until the old bitch! Then firing that belt at on old truck...and then taking a look at just how much damage a .50 AP round does...

It's almost as much fun as watching Tom & Jerry cartoons with my daughter!

[perardua]

We shot up old tank hulks on Lydd ranges with the .50 when we did our training with it. Good times, even if I did slip and burn myself doing a barrel change. GMG's pretty good too, though reassembing the bolt after cleaning is like doing a rubik's cube.

[Legbreaker]

The FN MAG or whatever you want to call it has one drawback from what I've heard (we only had the M60) was that there was nothing up front to hold onto when the weapon was hot. Made it a little difficult to carry about in an attack.
Great weapon on a mount or stationary position, but try moving and fighting with it and you run into issues.

Now as for destroying things, the .50cal has nothing on a hundred kilos of ANFO....

[perardua]

Carrying handle, or just wear gloves. The American version has a heat shield anyway, I think.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, I'd heard the carrying handle was the only thing that could be used, however it's not exactly in the best position for that sort of activity.
A heatshield is in my opinion, an absolute MUST. Sure you can wear a glove, but that reduces your manual dexterity and slow reaction time in the event of a stoppage. Any glove thick enough to cope with the blistering heat is unlikely to allow the fine motorskills required to reload, etc.

[perardua]

To be honest, for speed of movement in and especially out of firing positions (which with a GPMG, are going to be prone) whilst on the attack, the carrying handle is actually better than carrying it in a conventional fashion. Grab gun, run to next position, gun down, you go down behind it, then when you get up you just grab it by the handle and leg it forward again. That's how we used it in the light role, and is how it's supposed to be done on the annual weapons assessment for GPMG when advancing and withdrawing. SF role is a different matter.

Seemed to work at the time.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's better than a .50 purely because I can carry and fire it without assistance! Apparently Heckler & Koch is doing an update of the GPMG for the British forces, made from significantly lighter materials and with a picatinny rail on the top cover, or at least so I read in the various trade magazines we have in the crew room.

FN USA has built a version of the M240, which I believe is in limited issue now, which has a good portion of the steel parts replaced by lighter titanium. It's on my pages, and it's a lot lighter than a standard M240.

[Targan]

Now as for destroying things, the .50cal has nothing on a hundred kilos of ANFO....

Indeed.