British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[TiggerCCW UK]

As far as I remember some of the close obs platoons used M16's over here, and IIRC the M16 was issued to certain units in Newry after an overpenetration incident when a squaddie with an SLR returned fire on a provie gunman and shot straight through the walls of a house and nearly hit a civilian. I'm unsure why this was deemed a particular problem in Newry as opposed to Belfast, Stroke sity or any other urban area.

[Ironside]

Thanks for the replies people; I would have responded earlier but RL raised its ugly head.

@StainlessSteelCynic

Small arms did slip my mind, I'll rectify that in the next draft. I left out the 25pdr deliberately as my major source for that - Encyclopedia of the British Army 3rd Edition by Terry Gander 1986 - mentions that the 25pdr would soon be withdrawn due to diminishing ammo supplies, more having to be ordered from India or other country using it. I had no idea that the ammo was being produced in Britain. I'd be very grateful if you could share your info on that.

[perardua]

The L119A1 is a Diemaco, as far as I can tell, having spent some time on the ranges with some SFSG lads while on tour who let us have a go.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thanks for the replies people; I would have responded earlier but RL raised its ugly head.

@StainlessSteelCynic

Small arms did slip my mind, I'll rectify that in the next draft. I left out the 25pdr deliberately as my major source for that - Encyclopedia of the British Army 3rd Edition by Terry Gander 1986 - mentions that the 25pdr would soon be withdrawn due to diminishing ammo supplies, more having to be ordered from India or other country using it. I had no idea that the ammo was being produced in Britain. I'd be very grateful if you could share your info on that.

To be a little clearer, I have probably been confused with the fact that Pakistan Ordnance Factories still produce the 25-pounder ammo however my original information was that the Honourable Artillery Company was still operating the gun into the early 1990s. I haven't found my book yet but I have found the same info given in the wiki article on the HAC in the Post-War section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honourable_Artillery_Company

[helbent4]

The L119A1 is a Diemaco, as far as I can tell, having spent some time on the ranges with some SFSG lads while on tour who let us have a go.

Perardua,

Diemaco is an interesting story. Both new and licenced weapons (SA-80, AUSTEYR-88) seem to have considerable teething difficulties; Diemaco took a design and within a decade had made improvements on the original so much that more C7s-C8s were sold to more foreign governments than the M16/M4 designs, and in more versions. In a move that is neither surprising nor ironic, Colt acquired Diemaco and it is now known as "Colt Canada".

There were rumours in the 90's that the Diemaco C7 and C8 would replace the L85A1, but for many reasons this didn't come about. For one thing, a lot of time and money had been sunk into the SA-80. Also, the idea might have been to run out the clock until the next generation infantry weapon was developed, likely an OICW-type system.

In the T2K timeline, it's possible that after being adopted by special units in the 90's, the L119A1 would become more widespread in British units due to quality and availability, at least as a stopgap while the L85A2 is developed and deployed.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

I can't say any of the early model F88 Austeyrs I was issued had any teething problems. All worked well without faults.
The only thing I could say about it is that the bolt hold open device (a simple slot for cocking handle) didn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in the user after handling the L1A1. It seemed too easy to accidentally knock it, allowing the bolt to fly forward and chamber a round (or potentially trapping a finger in the chamber while conducing night time safety checks).

[pmulcahy11b]

The only thing I could say about it is that the bolt hold open device (a simple slot for cocking handle) didn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in the user after handling the L1A1. It seemed too easy to accidentally knock it, allowing the bolt to fly forward and chamber a round (or potentially trapping a finger in the chamber while conducing night time safety checks).

The bolt hold-open of the M16 is like that. It's especially apparent when you go from Inspection Arms to Order Arms -- the butt goes to the ground and the bolt immediately goes forward. But it also makes for a quicker reloading time -- just trip the bolt catch after putting in a new magazine.

[Legbreaker]

Having used both weapons, I have to say the catch on the M16 is definately the flimsier. At least with the F88 you can keep your hand in a position that will block the cocking handle if it does dislodge itself (just don't let any instructors see your hand anywhere near it).

It seems strange that with the L1A1 SOP was that you engaged the hold open device, yet kept your hand on the cocking handle (in case the catch failed), but with the Steyr you got in serious shit for doing exactly the same thing.

[Rainbow Six]

To be a little clearer, I have probably been confused with the fact that Pakistan Ordnance Factories still produce the 25-pounder ammo however my original information was that the Honourable Artillery Company was still operating the gun into the early 1990s. I haven't found my book yet but I have found the same info given in the wiki article on the HAC in the Post-War section
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honoura...illery_Company

I can't be 100% certain on this, but I think the HAC's Gun Troop had a mainly ceremonial role.

There's some more info on them here (not all of this would be correct in a T2K timeline).

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Honourable_Artillery_Company

Cheers

Dave

[perardua]

A couple of the NCOs I was talking to on the range were of the opinion that the L119 was no more reliable than an L85A2, but offered the advantages of being able to be fired from the left shoulder, being not obviously British (plenty of people use Diemacos, whilst the L85 is rather distinctively ours), and most important of all, being different from the rest of the forces, which they admitted was part of the draw of being SF.

[helbent4]

A couple of the NCOs I was talking to on the range were of the opinion that the L119 was no more reliable than an L85A2, but offered the advantages of being able to be fired from the left shoulder, being not obviously British (plenty of people use Diemacos, whilst the L85 is rather distinctively ours), and most important of all, being different from the rest of the forces, which they admitted was part of the draw of being SF.

Peradua,

I could see this, the main advantage of the C8/L119A1 is that it was a proven design that was available immediately as a replacement for the L85A1, not that it was more reliable (once the SA80's kinks were worked out).

Leg,

I'm not going to get into the concerns with the early AUGs, as these mainly exaggerations and the AUSteyr does not belong on a "worst weapons" list. (There were a few changes that did improve things drastically but the design was sound.) Personally, I'd have been fine if Canada chose the AUG over the AR-15, but there it is.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Personally I'd have been happy if they kept the 7.62N L1A1 instead of the 5.56 F88, but that's just me and my desire to see a target obliterated rather than tickled to death....
I do like the ergonomices of the F88 a bit more though as it's much easier to use on handed than just about any other weapon I've every laid my greasy fingers on. Some say it's an uncomfortable weapon to use, but I think that's mainly because it's a bullpup and nothing is where you'd expect it to be on a conventional weapon. Adequate training fixes that. It's also one of the easiest weapons to carry on patrol because of it's centre of balance being right at the pistol grip.
It's only other drawback, at least in the earlier versions, was it's inability to fit a GL or alternate sights and accessories (this wasn't much of an issue at the time though as VERY few accessories were available, let alone issued).

[pmulcahy11b]

I've never fired a bullpup weapon, so...how does a bullpup compare to a conventional rifle And has anyone here used one in combat

[helbent4]

Personally I'd have been happy if they kept the 7.62N L1A1 instead of the 5.56 F88, but that's just me and my desire to see a target obliterated rather than tickled to death....

Leg,

You would have a lot of agreement from members of the Canadian Forces (Reg Force and militia) who transitioned from the 7.62x51mm FN C1A1/C2A1 to the 5.56x45mm C7/C8. There is still a lot of nostalgia for the old "FN".

Tony

[Targan]

Personally I'd have been happy if they kept the 7.62N L1A1 instead of the 5.56 F88, but that's just me and my desire to see a target obliterated rather than tickled to death....

I hear ya.