Twilight 2013 to end publication in December 2010

[natehale1971]

To many that i talked too just couldn't get over the fact the president 'disbanding the federal government with an executive order'... when it takes 2/3rds of the states to disband it! Now the president could order Federal assets to stand down, and place themselves under the authority of State and Local governments during the 'period of emergency/national disaster'... But at least they touched on the legality of the order in their own narrative prose of two rich @$$holes talking about setting themselves up as Lords of the Manors and such.

[Eddie]

Well, the license comes open in December...

Richard, I know you had big ideas to revitalize T:2K...

[natehale1971]

Well, the license comes open in December...

Richard, I know you had big ideas to revitalize T:2K...

Yes... i did.

It was going to be a big idea for the game set up. even drew up mock ups for the covers of the core rulebook and each of the sourcebooks. If anyone is interested in what i wanted to do.. i can post it here and have everyone though their two cents in and possibly get a damn good set up (and help bridge the gaps from my brain damage).

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, I wonder what the licence would cost.....

[natehale1971]

Hmm, I wonder what the licence would cost.....

THat I don't know... but wish i did!

[Dog 6]

lets try and find out.

[Mahatatain]

I think that it is sad that T2013 has ceased but I think that some decisions were made by 93 Games Studio that made the success of the game unlikely.

1. The game background is weak in places and is quite US centric. The details of the UK made me cringe and I read one comment (from an Australian) when the game was realeased that he suspected that the writers hadn't even looked at Australia on a map! It seemed to me that the game background was written for a US market without any thought to an international market as it plays heavily to US stereotype views of the rest of the world. My instant reaction as a GM therefore was that I would have to rewrite the game background or simply use the system in a different setting.

2. There are some flaws in the combat rules (in my opinion) and that put several players I know off the game after an initial session.

3. Their business model seems to focus around people purchasing pdf versions rather than actual books in most countries and that seems wrong to me. Most gamers (and the majority of T2k fans) are "older" gamers and are more likely to spend the money for a good quality hardback book (which is what they produced in some markets) rather than a pdf. None of the supplements were ever more than pdfs though (I believe).

4. They initially focussed on firearms supplements rather than sourcebooks or adventures and when they did release a sourcebook it was for their "Everytown" generic setting rather than the Czech sourcebook Tegyrius developed - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=2355

It's sad when any game fails but I think that their approach was flawed in the first place.

They seem to be nice guys however so I hope that they do well in the future. They've done more to contribute to the gaming hobby as a whole than I've ever done!

[Mahatatain]

lets try and find out.

I think that the guys at http://www.farfuture.net/ might well know who owns the licence.

[Tegyrius]

If they'd have ever gotten the vehicle combat system and other rules sorted out I would have like to have given the Reflex rules a shot for my T2K game. Background aside, there was a lot of cool detail there.

FYI, it's not a complete rewrite, but one of the last pieces I released on the 93GS forums included an errata pack for the vehicle rules. It's also in the manuscript for Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=2361).

If one (or more) of the gun books had been dropped and a sourcebook or two updating T2K to the Reflex system been added it would have been worth it, or at least made better use of the licence.

Aside from some equipment conversions and possibly a reduction in the availability of the Computing skill, I think Reflex is completely usable with the T2k setting. That was, in fact, one of my primary design objectives. What would you say is missing

(I don't know about the "Cold War" gun book, so maybe that was their nod to previous editions)

Not really. Cold Warriors came about because I have a C&R license and wanted to stat out some of the stuff that I've reserved space in the safe for. After I ran the numbers on a few rifles, I realized I had another possible theme for a Shooter's Guide PDF.

I think that it is sad that T2013 has ceased but I think that some decisions were made by 93 Games Studio that made the success of the game unlikely.

You say "93 Games Studio" like the company is a massive entity.

3. Their business model seems to focus around people purchasing pdf versions rather than actual books in most countries and that seems wrong to me. Most gamers (and the majority of T2k fans) are "older" gamers and are more likely to spend the money for a good quality hardback book (which is what they produced in some markets) rather than a pdf. None of the supplements were ever more than pdfs though (I believe).

Like it or not (and I, personally, do not like the trend), I fear it's the way the industry is headed. PDF publication eliminates a massive amount of cost from the product and cuts several months off the back end of the production schedule, as well as allowing rapid distribution of errata/updates.

- C.

[helbent4]

Clayton,

No disrespect is meant to yours or anyone else's efforts on T2013. You seem to imply that "93 Studios" is not some kind of monolithic entity. To be fair, gaming companies did use to be fairly monolithic entities, so for those of us that have been gaming for a while that's a natural if outdated assumption. We regular gamers are probably not as privy to the inner workings of any company as an insider would be.

From a design point of view I can see there being a desire to get away from going over ground that's been thoroughly covered because old-timers would be bored and/or insulted and new players not already familiar with the setting would not be attracted. Hard Eight Enterprises licenced the 1st edition AD&D rules and refined them while also recapitulating classic dungeon crawls on a literal module-per-module basis. The resulting "Hackmaster 4th edition" was probably financially successful and definitely award-winning; HM still has momentum even after the end of their licence. Granted, there was a considerable advantage because of the prior connection to 1st ed. AD&D and awareness created by KotDT. I'm less familiar with Mongoose Traveller, but I believe Mongoose licenced Traveller from FFE and made a success by building on CT rules and the style of the old adventures and 3rd Imperium setting.

In other words, when gamers read HM 4e and Mongoose Traveller the response wasn't "groan, same-old, same-old" but "yes! This was what we should have had instead of 2nd/3rd/3.5/4th edition and/or MegaTraveller/TNE (especially)/M0/T20/G:T". I can't speak for Mongoose Traveller but I've not had any problems with younger or other players without AD&D 1st ed. experience in playing HM 4e.

That said, as to what could have been added was at least a recap and clean-up of T2K, perhaps a re-work of at least some of the original adventures (like v2.2 attempt that was abandoned with Krakow). Then working within the same (or similar) timeline until 2013.

Regarding the vehicle rules, I'm glad you came up with some additions. I'll certainly have a look at them! When I was considering adapting Reflex for my T2K game I checked the 93 T2013 forums and discovered there were problems with the vehicle rules regarding movement and penetration. I backed off until this could get sorted out, and there it is.

Not really. Cold Warriors came about because I have a C&R license and wanted to stat out some of the stuff that I've reserved space in the safe for. After I ran the numbers on a few rifles, I realized I had another possible theme for a Shooter's Guide PDF.

"C&R licence", "safe" Ah, not too sure what you mean, but I'm guessing you're saying that in developing some stuff you realised you had enough material for a separate "Shooter's Guide" PDF, which wouldn't cost anything to produce and would serve to fill in some blanks for those who were interested

Edit Added:

After reading the notice of a new game using Reflex with T2K and the classic modules, I see someone else was waaaay ahead of me!

Tony

[Tegyrius]

Clayton,

No disrespect is meant to yours or anyone else's efforts on T2013. You seem a little defensive about the assumption that "93 Studios" is some kind of monolithic entity. To be fair, gaming companies did use to be fairly monolithic entities, so for those of us that have been gaming for a while that's a natural assumption. We regular gamers are probably not as privy to the inner workings of any company as an insider.

Yeah, I am a bit defensive about it. There's stuff I'm not going to discuss at this point for various reasons, but I'll repeat something that has been my mantra for a couple of years now: 93GS has exactly one full-time employee, and even he has a real job to subsidize his hobby job. Everyone else involved with the project is/was freelance talent, selling our work to Keith on a per-word or per-art-piece basis - if not doing it unpaid to gain publication credits. As the primary rules writer, I fell into the per-word category, and while my word rate is decent for the gaming industry, I could make more teaching high school English than writing RPGs as a full-time job. Keith's ultimately dropping the license because it's not profitable. So it's not like there was this massive cabal of money-grubbing capitalists out to shit on everyone's fond memories of 1e and 2e... which, at times, feels like the opinion that the majority of this forum's members hold.

As far as the rules/setting relationship... it's complicated. I think it's fair to say that Keith had a lot of problems getting writers not to flake on the setting side of the project. That's an occupational hazard of the RPG business. It's damned hard to find people who (A) know how to write English at a professional level, (B) consistently adhere to deadlines, (C) are willing to work for crap word rates, (D) can produce compelling and coherent setting and/or rules material, and (E) understand what the line developer/director's vision is.

I like to think I usually satisfy requirements A, C, D, and E. I'm still working on B - I like writing but life gets in the way. I like writing setting material and I wish I could have done more of it in 2013. However, during that whole time of turmoil, I was off trying not to completely screw up the rules side of the project, either either by writing it myself or by doing outlines for other rules writers and then developing their manuscripts to align with the engine. Because the setting was fluctuating, I couldn't and didn't write something whose mechanics were in thematic lockstep with the world (for an example of that, see, oh, Deadlands or Houses of the Blooded). So what you guys got in Reflex was a halfway decent generic modern system with an integral rules pack for post-apocalyptic play. Like I said, one of my objectives was to make Reflex usable with the GDW settings, not just with the specific world of 2013.

"C&R licence", "safe" Ah, not too sure what you mean, but I'm guessing you're saying that in developing some stuff you realised you had enough material for a separate "Shooter's Guide" PDF, which wouldn't cost anything to produce and would serve to fill in some blanks for those who were interested

Ah, sorry. Now I see your location line. C&R is short for "Curio & Relic," which is a limited type of federal firearms license that the appropriate American authorities will issue to collectors of such weapons. A C&R licensee can bypass some bureaucratic annoyances when purchasing the older firearms that are on the current C&R master list (and it's also good for discounts at some shooting supply houses). So, basically, I was looking at rifles from the C&R list that I wanted to buy and realized that they had enough history to be the makings of an interesting little supplement.

... well, I thought it was interesting, anyway...

Edit Added:

After reading your notice of a new game using Reflex with T2K and the classic modules, I see you were waaaay ahead of me!

That's Max, actually. If I ever get to run 2013, it'll probably use the Czech Republic setting. That's probably the only way anyone will ever play in it...

- C.

[helbent4]

Yeah, I am a bit defensive about it.

So it's not like there was this massive cabal of money-grubbing capitalists out to shit on everyone's fond memories of 1e and 2e... which, at times, feels like the opinion that the majority of this forum's members hold.

That's Max, actually. If I ever get to run 2013, it'll probably use the Czech Republic setting. That's probably the only way anyone will ever play in it...

- C.

Clayton,

Heh, looks like I was modifying my post when you replied; I do see the game was Max's idea, not yours.

Your defensiveness does seem misplaced. No one is making comments about 93 Studios out of knowing malice and no one begrudges the fact that someone wants to make money as long as they're offering quality in return... and a product people want to support.

I agree there was no conspiracy to "shit on everyone's fond memories of 1e and 2e", so presumably it was done for the best reasons and with the most noble intentions. Does it matter As you say, the "line developer/director's vision" was ultimately responsible for the product and the lack of success, not the customers who ended up deciding not to buy the product, or did and were disappointed, like me. Thinking that the licence for T2K wasn't put to the best use doesn't make me some kind of ungrateful wretch or unwashed conspiracy theorist.

As for the Cold War sourcebook, hey, I would definitely pay for that! That was a cool thing about T2K, the wacky and outdated weapons added in the Small Arms and heavy Weapons handbooks.

Interesting thing about Deadlands, eventually the rules were "reverse-engineered" by way of the Great Rail Wars to be more generic and universal. I'm running Hell on Earth and might convert to Savage Worlds if the right supplement comes out. Reading up about HotB, maybe not so much.

Tony

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Clayton,

After reading the notice of a new game using Reflex with T2K and the classic modules, I see someone else was waaaay ahead of me!

Tony

Well that "someone" was also part of the design team. LOL

Czech was my second choice (and I will run a group there once they are familiar witht he system) but what made me choose the original modules was that I was clearing out my storage unit and pulled out my collection. As I was thumbing them I felt nostalgia hit me and thought the rookie group might like to experience the fun I had with the original modules - modified.

[Snake Eyes]

I've been stewing over this for a couple weeks now and I suppose if there is a silver lining to be found in Keith's decision to shutter 93GS it is that, with the license back in play, anyone who thinks they could have done a better job is now free to put their money where their mouth is and prove it. I really don't mean for that to come across as bitter as that sounds because I have seen a lot of really good ideas tossed around here over the years and there is certainly a lot I would have done differently had it been my ship to steer. Running a boutique RPG publishing outfit is a near-zero margin business, and not for the likes of me to pull what's left of my hair out over - but I really look forward to somebody scraping up that seed money and presenting the owner with the business plan that will allow them to pick up that torch and run with it. For what it's worth, my career as a Twilight:2000 fanboy has been long and distinguished and my playtesting credentials are impeccable. Excellent references provided upon request. Good luck, you're on your own.

[Gorbag]

Well, poo. This is a bummer. Does this mean I've got to hurry up and get all the sourcebook pdf's I'm lacking before they go away into the ether