Little Big Horn, A Study of a Cavalry Regiment in the Indian Wars

[mikeo80]

The naked body of George Custer, from all accounts, was not mutilated. He was found in a sitting position leaning against and between two troopers, his face was said to be wearing the expression of a man who "had fallen asleep and enjoyed peaceful dreams". Custer was found with two wounds, a bullet in front of the left temple and another in the left breast.

There is an interesting side note to GAC's wounds. There are several accounts by Native Americans that GAC was at least wounded early in the BLBH. THese accounts were recorded in the late 1910's to 1930's.

As the part of the 7th under Custer attacked the village, the soldiers suddenly stopped and retreated after a period of confusion. This activity was confirmed by the archeology of LBH battlefield.

Was Custer already dead
Seriously wounded, then moved to top of Last Stand Hill
Could this be why the Doctor with GAC's Companies set up in the Last Stand Hill area

Unknown, but the sudden incapacitation of GAC could explain why the 5 companies with GAC seemed to loose agressive action after the attempt on the village.

Something else to consider, General Terry stated that the wound to the head was "blackened".

Self inflicted
Shot by some last member of the 7th to make sure GAC was dead before the over run by the Indians

Mike

[helbent4]

The body he referenced identified in this manner was found in 1987 (see the previous sentence in his port). They did have CSI then. I am assuming they had a photograph to compare the reconstruction to.

Brandon,

Or, Stitch2.0 lives in an alternative timeline where the US Civil war lasted until 1876/1877 or indeed, 1987 and forensic science therefore remains underdeveloped. Obviously some quantum internet error!

Regarding the blackening that Mike mentions, it could have been a coup-de-grace administered post-mortem by the Indians.

Tony

[dragoon500ly]

I think you are making all of this up. They didn't have CSI in the civil war.

Sigh.....you really should stay current on recent events. What happened is that they recovered the skull on the bank of the Little Big Horn River. The skull was turned over to a facial reconstruction artist, you know, the people who take measurements on the thickness of muscle and fat and then scuplt a face to match the skull The only person that matched the result was Mitch Boyer, who was killed with the Custer Battalion.

They have also used this technique to sculpt seven faces of troopers who were found in the recent digs, to date, the remains of Sergeant Miles O'Hara; Sergeant Edward Botzer; Corporal George Lell and Private Vincent Charley have been identified by this method.

Another technique that is being used is one developed by the FBI. They take a photo of the skull and then run known photos of troopers to find a match. This software was developed to ID missing persons when human remains were found.

As for me making this up....may I take the time to refer you to a most excellent resource, the book "They Died With Custer" by Douglas D. Scott, P.Willey and Melissa A. Connor. Its an excellent examination of the Seventh Cavalry and goes into this process in much greater detail.

And next time, when you decide to call someone down who has taken the time to research the subject, please, take the time to research it for yourself. It will save you the embrassment.

Have a Nice Day!

[dragoon500ly]

That is what I figured. Shame they couldn't use modern stuff to id them all. Yeah, it understandable that they could lose the position for the 28 buried. Probably they believed they were in one place and actually in another place completely.

Its more a matter of where the bodies were buried. The 28 men were buried in Deep Ravine, most accounts state that a wall of the ravine was undermined and collapsed on them. The years of runoff from the rains this area is known for most likely washed them down the Little Big Hirn River.

Dr. Fox has conducted at least three digs around the location indicated on the burial map and only bone fragments have been recovered.

[mikeo80]

Regarding the blackening that Mike mentions, it could have been a coup-de-grace administered post-mortem by the Indians.

Tony

This is also a distinct possibility!

When Captain Weir led the abortive move of Company D from the Reno-Benteen position to what is now called Weir Point, it was observed that there were a large group of Indians still firing towards Last Stand Hill. Weir and his party assumed that Custer was still fighting. This is a possibility, but more likely, this was the Indians making sure that any one on LSH was dead.

Just offered the "blackening" as a discussion point.

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

There is an interesting side note to GAC's wounds. There are several accounts by Native Americans that GAC was at least wounded early in the BLBH. THese accounts were recorded in the late 1910's to 1930's.

As the part of the 7th under Custer attacked the village, the soldiers suddenly stopped and retreated after a period of confusion. This activity was confirmed by the archeology of LBH battlefield.

Was Custer already dead
Seriously wounded, then moved to top of Last Stand Hill
Could this be why the Doctor with GAC's Companies set up in the Last Stand Hill area

Unknown, but the sudden incapacitation of GAC could explain why the 5 companies with GAC seemed to loose agressive action after the attempt on the village.

Something else to consider, General Terry stated that the wound to the head was "blackened".

Self inflicted
Shot by some last member of the 7th to make sure GAC was dead before the over run by the Indians

Mike

When you discuss the movements of the Custer Bn, there is one key to watch for, this is the movement of the "Grey Horse Troop", Company E was mounted on grey/white horses and this has been used to confirm the movements of the Left Wing of the Battalion. Indian oral traditions hold that the leader of the Grey Horse Soldiers was wounded during their initial attack down Deep Coulee. Does this refer to GAC, Captain Yates (commanding the Left Wing) or 1st Lieutenant Algernon Smith (the acting company commander) No one may ever know for sure.

It is known that the Custer Bn fell back to the line Custer Hill-Battle Ridge-Calhoun Hill shortly afterwards, was this due to the wounding/death of GAC Or is it simply a move to the higher terrain Both can be argued.

As for the position of Doctor George Lord on Custer Hill, this can also be explained. Dr. Lord was a member of the regimental staff, he would have been near GAC as a matter of course. Once again Indian oral tradiations hold that the end of the Custer Bn, after the start of the attacks led by Chief Gall and Crazy Horse came "as swiftly as a herd of buffalo can run." There would have been no time for Dr. Lord to move anywhere else on the battlefield.

While there is no doubt that the Custer Bn went on the defensive early on. This does not indicate that Custer being wounded/killed had caused it. For example, the senior company commander's, Captain Myles Keogh, Captain Thomas Custer and Captain George Yates were all experienced Indian fighters and fully capable of taking over the command of the battalion. Please remember that Indian oral traditions hold that many of the cavalry mounts were run off early; Custer had also dispatched a message to Benteen to bring up the packs as quickly as possible, a possible indicator of an ammunition shortage, finally, the positions of at least three companies stretched down Battle Ridge-Calhoun Hill, indicate an attempt to open a path for the movement of Benteen's Battalion and the pack train.

And finally, General Terry mentioned that the wound to Custer's head was blackened, several years afterwards. All accounts of those officer's who were present when GAC's body was found, stated that neither wound was blackened, indicating long range fire was responsible. Even Captain Benteen, who was noted as hating Custer, never stated that Custer committed sucide. This does not mean that the possibility did not exist, but IMO, I feel that Custer was wounded earlier in the fight and then killed when the position on Custer Hill was overrun. Terry's observation of the blackening has always been felt by many historians as just another way of blackening GAC's reputation.

[dragoon500ly]

Brandon,

Or, Stitch2.0 lives in an alternative timeline where the US Civil war lasted until 1876/1877 or indeed, 1987 and forensic science therefore remains underdeveloped. Obviously some quantum internet error!

Regarding the blackening that Mike mentions, it could have been a coup-de-grace administered post-mortem by the Indians.

Tony

Well, as any Son of the South will assure you, The War of Northern Agression is simply in a temporary state of cease-fire. Hostilities will recommence shortly.

[Panther Al]

One of my old history teachers when I was in the south absolutely refused to call the war of northern aggression anything but, and said the same thing about resting up. The really amusing part is when he actually brought up the size and quality of southern national guard units and compared them with "those peoples" units. Almost made me a believer he did.

[dragoon500ly]

One of my old history teachers when I was in the south absolutely refused to call the war of northern aggression anything but, and said the same thing about resting up. The really amusing part is when he actually brought up the size and quality of southern national guard units and compared them with "those peoples" units. Almost made me a believer he did.

Shhhhhh....it's a big surprise for the Yankees....just wait till the 49th Armored Division rolls out kicks the bejesus out of them Kansas pukes!

[Stich2.0]

Civil war is ancient history. CSI is cooler.

[helbent4]

Stich2.0:

HA!

Well, as any Son of the South will assure you, The War of Northern Agression is simply in a temporary state of cease-fire. Hostilities will recommence shortly.

Lee,

Well get on with it, already! What's the bloody hold up

I can see the natural end-game right now:



Tony

[Panther Al]

LOL.

That is soooo wrong its right. Though I think we could have at least grabbed Alberta and SK without too much trouble.

Not sure where the newfies would jump, but the frenchies would jump ship at the least.

(And I can call them newfies, for I am a son of one!)

[dragoon500ly]

[QUOTE=Abbott Shaull;28710]Many of the failed commanders of the forces of the Union in the East were in general with the exception of McClellan were offered to re-take their place in Corps commands, but many refused. Strangely enough McClellan was allowed to do so command twice. Some were transferred from various Department to others after being relieved.[QUOTE]

And the only reason why "Little Mac" was brought back was that the available pool of generals was so poor. What finally nailed McClellan's coffin shut was his piss-poor performance at Antitem. Had the chance to smash the Army of Northern Virgina, but, in essence, let each of his corps launch its own attack, none of which were coordinated by McClellan. Cany we say defeat in detail

[Quote]McDowell is the only commander of an Army that I know where he went to Division after the First Battle of Bull Run, then became Corps Commander and like many he had an independent command that wasn't part of the much larger Army operating in Virginia. Then when three independent Corps had been formed into the Army of Virgina under General Pope due to defeat of the at Second Battle of Bull Run was strip of his command and was no longer allowed to hold command position even though it wasn't his fault for that that lose.[QUOTE]

One almost has to admire General Pope, he gets his army cut to pieces, and yet was able to push a lot of blame for his own failures onto the shoulders of McDowell. At least Lincoln was able to read through Pope's BS.

[QUOTE]While on the Confederate side not many Generals were forced to retired for failures. Many would lose their position to be place back into similar position again. General Bragg and General Hood remind me of two generals that probably would of done better as Corps commanders but made it to Army Commander and they for a while with several other cast of Generals rotated through the various variation of Armies that fought first along the Mississippi, then what was called the West, and finally in Georgia and the Carolinas.[QUOTE]

Being a Confederate General was no joke either. A lot of people point out the failures of the Union command, but since they were attacking most of the war, the failures of their Generals was much more obvious. The Confederates were able to fight defensively and this concealed the weakness of their own generals. General Johnson was always considered to be a better general than Lee, but when Johnson launced his attack at Shiloh, he had so little control that Beauregard was able to force a pure Napoleonic assault on the Confederates, in terrain that can only be described as "cut-up". While the Rebels were able to inflict major losses on Grant and force him into a small perimeter, the timely reinforcements by the Union Army of the Ohio allowed Grant to counterattack and win a bitter victory at Shiloh.

As for John Bell Hood....he was a great brigade commander, a fair division commander and as an army commander, he was the best thing that happened to the Confederate Army of Tennessee, at least as far as the Union was concerned. During the Union retreat to Nashville, Hood took a chance to nail the Union rear guard at the Battle of Franklin, the result, Hood lost a quarter of his army and didn't even delay the rear guard. Yet Hood felt that it was a victory because he had taught his men how to fight!!!!!

At the Battle of Nashville, General Thomas scored the only total destruction of a Confederate army when his attack smashed Hood's defenses. By the end of the summer, the Army of the Tennessee, back at its start point in Georgia, could muster a little over 5,000 men...and they were assigned the mission of stopping Sherman's March...

[dragoon500ly]

[QUOTE=helbent4;28774]Stich2.0:

HA!

Lee,

Well get on with it, already! What's the bloody hold up

I can see the natural end-game right now:

Tony[/QUOTE}

It should read the Republic of Texas...I can see they left out the New England states....there has to be a reserve for the liberals to roam, I guess.

[dragoon500ly]

Tobacco Use in the Seventh

Nowdays, the use of the brown leaf is considered to be a filthy, disease-ridden habit. In the nineteenth century, tobacco was considered to be a necessary habit. It helped to relive fatigue and hunger, and it also helped to relive boredom.

During the 1870s, it was possible for a trooper to draw a Tobacco Ration from the government. This amount to one pound per man, per month. The trooper had to reimbused the government for the cost of the tobacco, but this was at the rate that the government had purchased it, amount to about $1.14 a pound in 1876.

Only enlisted men were able to draw the ration although officers could make their purchases direct from the commissery.

During 1878, the army sold 43,285 pounds of chewing tobacco and 27,282 pounds of smoking tobacco.

According to the FDC, about 35% of Americans use tobacco...in contrast, in the Seventh Cavalry, the usage is well over 90%! Even in today's army, tobacco usage is heavier than with civilans, but it only averages about 44%.