Fiddle's Green

[dragoon500ly]

Was websearching and came across a fansite; one of the postings was a modified US OOB for Twilight 2000. In this OOB, the writer had several units activated; now some of them I can understand, like reactivating the 4th Armored Division and sending it to the Persian Gulf; reactivating ACRs like the 10th and 14th and sending one to Europe and one to the Persian Gulf. Okay, gives some badly needed firepower for the XVIII Airborne and I Amphibious Corps....

But it was his reactivation of the 11th, 13th and 17th Airborne Divisions that raised an eyebrow. I know I'm going to start a major flame war, but this is my opinion; the age of throwing airborne divisions into major operations via transport aircraft ended with World War Two. Nowdays, the "Airborne" portion simply means that the division has strategic mobility via the Air Force. I feel that Desert Storm simply confirmed that while it is very easy to transport several thousand paratroopers to a distant theater, their ability to project power is limited to how far they can march in a day. This is the major drawback of the light divisions and the reason why the US Army is moving to the medium division format. Light Divisions are to light to project power and Heavy Divisions tie up too much strategic sealift in sending them to the area of operations.

Now, by no means am I slamming the Light fighters, I have the deepest respect for them, I am simply questioning their ability to project power. Tactically, they have a range of about 30 miles, they do not have the ability to transport enough supplies to sustain operations without the assignment of transportation companies. They truely are a case of "too little tail, not enough teeth."

Now I have strapped on my flame-proof longjohns, put on my SCBA....FLAME AWAY!

[Adm.Lee]

No more airborne divisions

No argument from me, at least as far as new divisions.

I like an idea that I remember reading in Patton's "War as I knew it," in which he recommended a parachute regiment for each Army, for quick-grab operations, like a bridge in the enemy rear. With the advent of helicopters, I think some kind of air-assault unit on call for a corps or army commander would be a handy force-multiplier.

I point out that the Soviets apparently agreed, and there was an air-assault brigade assigned to each Front, and another for the Shock Army/Tank Armies that were supposed to be the breakthrough and exploitation forces. These were in addition to the airborne-mechanized divisions held in strategic reserve.

For me, I guess for the US, I would have liked to make that a Ranger unit (company/battalion) semi-attached to a corps' helicopter brigade. It could be dropped or choppered to some location really quickly. If not Rangers, then consider them light dragoons, and we are back to the cavalry theme of this thread.

[dragoon500ly]

I for one would like to see a "reasonable" expansion of the Ranger Program, something capable of the missions that the Ranger Battalions were intended for. While a battalion per corps may be too much, I can see two battalions assigned to each theater.

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly the formation of 11th, 13th, and 17th Airborne Divisions to me wouldn't be much, if they were treated as holding unit with at least one of the Brigades airborne-trained and the other Air Assault/Air mobile trained. Still having a Division at Army/Army Group levels would give major command enough troops that one could move in to take Bridge or something like that as needed and allowing the Brigades enough time to train and absorb replacement in between operations. Even if these Divisions only had two Brigade Combat Teams it would still give Army Group Commanders, or UN Korea Command option they wouldn't have.

Even WWII showed a military force that got to cocky with their Airborne troops, would attempt foolishness that could only be topped by the other side couple years later. Crete and Market Garden proved the limitation. It interesting that the last airdrop in Europe was more of tactical one much similar to what today Air Assault/Air mobile troops fill in today.

I do remember that even though at time the West German Army had an HQ for their Airborne Division each of the operational Brigades were tasked to a Corps.

As for the 4th Armored along with the 10th and 14th ACR would of seemed to make sense. Especially if they were heading out to the Middle East and Korea.

[Abbott Shaull]

I for one would like to see a "reasonable" expansion of the Ranger Program, something capable of the missions that the Ranger Battalions were intended for. While a battalion per corps may be too much, I can see two battalions assigned to each theater.

Yeah I would think there would be some type of expansion and not likely to find the entire Regiment in the Middle East since they were suppose to operate as independent Battalions or smaller size unit during operations.

[Abbott Shaull]

It is one of the things that having in theory, that the 82nd Airborne, 101st Air Assault, and 10th Mountain Divisional HQ, are suppose to be able integrate into their Division the new Infantry and Heavy Brigade seamlessly. It is one of the things when you look at the various Division Commanders in the Army, not only these three Divisions, but Army-wide.

Several of the Division Commanders of these three Division rarely spent time outside of the XVIII Airborne Corps, the 75th Ranger Regiment, or Special Forces community. What time they did, it was a tour here in Germany or Korea, some time at the Pentagon, but most of their postings rotated around these type of units. Where as the other side of the coin the rest of the Divisional Commander of the for other Divisions served largely in Mechanized, Armor, and Armor Cavalry with various stints in with Light units.

Results have been that many of the Heavy Divisional Commanders do know the limitation that the Light force bring to their Operational Mix, while the Light Divisional Commanders seem so sure they could do so much more that the Heavy Divisional Commanders realized all too well.

As for the Army heading toward more and more to Medium scale force, well it what the the 6th, 7th, 25th Light Infantry Division as with the 9th Motorized Division should of been organized with maybe one Brigade of each of the mention Light Division being organized into Light Infantry Brigade for air mobility, but that would of been stretch in itself since the 25th and 7th basically shed their heavy equipment to become Light units....

[Panther Al]

Been thinking over those ideas of a hip pocket force at the corp level, and I am thinking that it really is a good idea. Maybe even at the divisional level. Some sort of hip pocket force, much more mobile than the division that its part of of, as some sort of 'elite' company that can be pulled out and used for those really hairy missions that has to go off - and do so faster than the divisions normal assets would allow.

[Abbott Shaull]

Been thinking over those ideas of a hip pocket force at the corp level, and I am thinking that it really is a good idea. Maybe even at the divisional level. Some sort of hip pocket force, much more mobile than the division that its part of of, as some sort of 'elite' company that can be pulled out and used for those really hairy missions that has to go off - and do so faster than the divisions normal assets would allow.

If you look at the deployments for the 82nd Airborne Division it was usually 2 Brigade size elements during it larger deployments, with the notable exception of 1990-1991 and 2003. While most of the time the 101st and 82nd sent out Battalion size task forces out for most deployments, which invariably included other sub-units of the XVIII Airborne Corps in support.

The main reason why they still have XVIII Airborne Corps around with these two Divisions is because it sounds nice when you can claim to assets in the air on the ground in so many hours. It was part of the reason why the 9th Infantry Division was a test unit for so long, part of their goal was to help give the 6th, 7th, 25th Light and 10th Mountain Division Medium Brigade to support the two Light Brigades. Then again we know where history went on that before and after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Especially when you consider the 6th, 7th, and 25th along with the 9th probably would be the first units shipped to Korea if they were needed first. Now with the 2nd ID only having forward it Heavy Brigade and the other 3 Brigades are stationed at Fort Lewis home of the 9th Motorized Infantry Division 'Test Bed'. The main difference once the 2nd Infantry and 25 Infantry are finally deployed fully to Korea there will be 8 Combat Brigades as oppose 11 regular duty Combat Brigade under the older system. *Shrug*

[dragoon500ly]

Honestly the formation of 11th, 13th, and 17th Airborne Divisions to me wouldn't be much, if they were treated as holding unit with at least one of the Brigades airborne-trained and the other Air Assault/Air mobile trained. Still having a Division at Army/Army Group levels would give major command enough troops that one could move in to take Bridge or something like that as needed and allowing the Brigades enough time to train and absorb replacement in between operations. Even if these Divisions only had two Brigade Combat Teams it would still give Army Group Commanders, or UN Korea Command option they wouldn't have.

Even WWII showed a military force that got to cocky with their Airborne troops, would attempt foolishness that could only be topped by the other side couple years later. Crete and Market Garden proved the limitation. It interesting that the last airdrop in Europe was more of tactical one much similar to what today Air Assault/Air mobile troops fill in today.

I do remember that even though at time the West German Army had an HQ for their Airborne Division each of the operational Brigades were tasked to a Corps.

As for the 4th Armored along with the 10th and 14th ACR would of seemed to make sense. Especially if they were heading out to the Middle East and Korea.

I can see 82nd as strategic reserve; with the division joining the XVIII Airborne in the Persian Gulf, there would be a need to rebuild the strategic reserve, but with the pressures of supporting three overseas and one CONUS front, I doubt if the manpower/training time to organize another airborne division.

I can see a airborne brigade, perhaps, but I think it would be more likely that there would be a couple of airmobile brigades and 1-2 light divisions.

In the Twilight timeline I can see SEATF being upgraded to brigade level (and yes, call it the 173rd), this would give the ACE Mobile Force a major reinforcement, high likely to go either to Turkey or to southern Germany following the Italian attack.

Got to admit, I'm a fan of the ACRs being reactivated, in their heavy level of organization, they would make a great fire brigade for RDF/Korea!

[Abbott Shaull]

Like I said I doubt any of those three Division would be completely Airborne or Air Assault trained. Maybe a Brigade or two at best. Say one Division HQ of each moving to Korea and Europe and keeping one in the states.

The Korea one would probably take administration and operational function of Air Assault Brigade of the 2nd and airborne units sent there.

The one Europe could provide support to the an expanded 173rd Airborne, but also NATO with the ability of deploying Airborne/Air Assault/Airmobile Division where need with the other Brigades for such operation coming from other members of NATO.

The Division left in the State would be administrative HQ, with Brigades at Bragg, Benning, and Campbell for training purposes with another active Brigade ready for deployment.

Just some thoughts.

[Abbott Shaull]

So would you think that if more ACR were activated would they be more along the lines of the traditional ACRs or would make the one being sent to the XVIII Airborne Corps a lighter and leaner version

[dragoon500ly]

So would you think that if more ACR were activated would they be more along the lines of the traditional ACRs or would make the one being sent to the XVIII Airborne Corps a lighter and leaner version

While I feel that sending a traditional "Heavy" ACR would give more punch to the XVIII than a light, it would be more likely that it will be one of these hyped-up Hummer/TOW outfits that gets created.

In a perfect world, where I'm SECDEF (LOL) I would push for a heavy ACR preloaded just for the PG and I don't think it would be a bad idea to assign two. A pair of heavy ACRs could raise holy hell in the area!

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I would tend to agree to you, and yeah two traditional would give the Corps the additional back-bone that would give it ability to take on forces they might face. Leave the HMMWV/TOW outfit to bulk up the Airborne and Air Assault units.

The one interesting thing is that during the operation in 2003 when Heavy units were flown into Norther Iraq after the 173rd had secured airfields. Not the most effective way to get heavy equipment into the airhead, but it was proof it could be done. Yet, like many things, after the first time you do a trick, the next time they will know what you were up too, when tried again.

[Panther Al]

While I feel that sending a traditional "Heavy" ACR would give more punch to the XVIII than a light, it would be more likely that it will be one of these hyped-up Hummer/TOW outfits that gets created.

In a perfect world, where I'm SECDEF (LOL) I would push for a heavy ACR preloaded just for the PG and I don't think it would be a bad idea to assign two. A pair of heavy ACRs could raise holy hell in the area!

I nominate that last it as the understatement of the month.

The 3rd, when we rolled in, from what I saw of not only Iraqi units, but Kuwaiti ones as well, could easily manhandle units three times its size, and thats without the Air Force/Navy air strikes. Send a couple of Heavy ACR's, back them with a pair of carriers in the gulf, and they would own anything they wanted.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah, that is why the 24th then the 3rd Mech after being re-flagged was assigned to the XVIII Airborne Corps with the hopes that this unit would be enough. Even though the active components of this Division probably would of been diverted to Europe if there was chance for it becoming an active battlefield to reinforce even temporary the units of the III Corps. At least until the National Guard units were brought up to speed.

Always felt that the 194th, 197th, and both Brigades of the 24th Mechanized probably would ended up in Europe. The assigned Round out Brigades then would shipped out to the Persian Gulf to build the 24th Mechanized Division and possible a new formed Armored Division. Also I could see the 40th Mechanized Division ending up in either Korea or Persian Gulf before ending up in Europe due to their west coast location.