Alternate British Armed Forces stuff...

[95th Rifleman]

The two biggest problems with an expansion of the Uk armed forces are money and men.

After WW2 Britain stopped being a dominant power, we steadily lost our empire and our industry and by the 90's had sod all left. Building new factories costs money that the treasury doesn't have, training and equiping new regiments costs money, upgrading the RAF costs shedload and don't get me started on the costs of rebuilding the Royal navy.

Britain is a democracy, how are you going to sell all this to the British people We where not scared of the reds the way Americans where back in the cold war. We had our own problems with the IRA and public opinion was pretty much along the lines of let the rest of the UN deal with things, why should we get dragged into it

Manpower is an issue aswell, the 90's where a relatively good time for the UK. The job market was on the up and we'd come out of the recession of the 80's.

[Rainbow Six]

The two biggest problems with an expansion of the Uk armed forces are money and men.

After WW2 Britain stopped being a dominant power, we steadily lost our empire and our industry and by the 90's had sod all left. Building new factories costs money that the treasury doesn't have, training and equiping new regiments costs money, upgrading the RAF costs shedload and don't get me started on the costs of rebuilding the Royal navy.

Britain is a democracy, how are you going to sell all this to the British people We where not scared of the reds the way Americans where back in the cold war. We had our own problems with the IRA and public opinion was pretty much along the lines of let the rest of the UN deal with things, why should we get dragged into it

Manpower is an issue aswell, the 90's where a relatively good time for the UK. The job market was on the up and we'd come out of the recession of the 80's.

Completely agree with the above. IMO if you want to get a substantially expanded Army (i.e. more than than a few Battalions) you're going to have to look at some seriously out of the box thinking and / or some significant divergences from the Real World timeline to make it work. Some form of conscription in the early 90's would probably do the job from the point of view of the manpower, but I'm not sure that would be a particularly plausible option without some sort of major World event happening to justify it. Also that wouldn't address the financial issues.

[simonmark6]

When adding Gurkhas to the ORBAT, it would be useful to remember that they are a finite resource. According to my incomplete research, during the 1990s, the following armies had this sort of number of Gurkhas:

UK: c5000
India: c50000
Nepal: c 5000

That's 60000 troops from an ethnic population of 3,500,000 at best. Whilst there is great competition for places in the British Army, about 60 applicants for every position, the supply might run out if there was a massive recruitment drive, even assuming that all 60 applicants were suitable anyway.

Several battalions, maybe even a division's worth of troops, would be possible maybe but after that the recruitment might start dropping off, especially if India was increasing its forces too.

As for finding manpower for other regiments, the UK has a quota of troops from overseas used to fill its ranks. This is about 10%, if this was waived in the early Nineties and the UK had a sort of "Squaddy Windrush", you might find the manpower from the Caribbean, Fiji and several African nations. Again, there are limits to how many would join but it could fill the ranks.

If you went this route, you'd need to skew UK character creation somewhat as between 10 and 20 per cent (maybe more) would have a more exotic background language than a Celtic Fringe one. Other issues could arise depending on where these foreign troops were stationed. In Europe they might be classed as mercenaries by the Soviets and treated badly. In Africa, it might lead to more desertions when the war ground down as African born troops could decide to go home and look after their families.

Elsewhere, foreign troops could be among the most loyal as their unit would be the only home they had left.

[atiff]

Even factoring these possibilities in - and they are only possibilities - remember the Australians are going to want to retain some (probably the majority) of their troops for home defence and the entire regular New Zealand Army is currently a reinforced Brigade Group (it may have been larger in 1990)

For reference about NZ overseas commitments:

In 1991, we contributed very little manpower to the Coalition

In 1994, we contributed one company group to UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia (actually placed under British command)

In 2000-2002, we contributed heavily to the mission in East Timor. At peak, there were over 1,000 NZ servicemen and women in East Timor, our largest deployment since Korea. We were with our good Aussie buddies. I remember at the time in NZ it felt like everyone was going and it really stretched resources; many Territorials got called up and sent. This was of course essentially in our own back yard.

Currently, all arms, I think we have about 8,000 active personnel, with around 2,000 reserves. The army has about 4,500 active and almost all of the reserves.

[dude_uk]

It comes down to it now and is it did back then and has done since the end of the second world war: Money. Or Rather Britain's lack of it. Attempting to create further forces in the gap of 1989-1995 which the normal twilight timeline allows is to play with, is quite hard to do.

The suppression of eastern Europe uprising's and the Gulf war might get you a few battalions from a political stand point. But financial reasoning is harder to find. General Hackett in his The Third world war justifies the creation of Britain's II corps by the government not supporting the creation of channel 4.

The Sino-Soviet war probably drums up quite a few sales in the arms and aerospace industries and perhaps some more from the middle east from the Israelis and friendly Arabs but would that be enough

Going with the Canon take on things. A Second Corps for Europe (Thereby a creating an army group) A division for the Far East (Mostly infantry), A brigade for the middle east and then a smattering of a Battalion or lower garrisons in the few remain colonial outposts is about it

MARILYN Report

What was this Louie

[Louied]

In 1988/89 the MOD came out with the MARILYN Report "Manning And Recruitment In The Lean Years of the Nineties" forecaste the forthcoming decline in the 18-22 male demographic in the UK. Between 1990-2000 it was estimated that this demographic group would fall from 2,229,000 in 1990 to 1,788,000 in 2000, about a 19.8 % reduction if my math is correct. The report discussed how the British Army would cope with this and apparently gave some suggestions. I tried to contact the MOD, the NAM, & the PRO for a copy but apparently it's still under the 30 year rule.

[dude_uk]

In 1988/89 the MOD came out with the MARILYN Report "Manning And Recruitment In The Lean Years of the Nineties"

Interesting, I think its mentioned in Antony Beevors Inside the British army. Of course two things happened. The Cold war ended and this reduced the size of the army. and also it turned out that the fears over the lack of baby making in the '70's did not materialise. How much of this was down to immigration or not improving fact checking of birth statistics, I am not sure.

What's Next on the Agenda Louie You were working on an ORBAT

[James Langham]

Interesting, I think its mentioned in Antony Beevors Inside the British army. Of course two things happened. The Cold war ended and this reduced the size of the army. and also it turned out that the fears over the lack of baby making in the '70's did not materialise. How much of this was down to immigration or not improving fact checking of birth statistics, I am not sure.

What's Next on the Agenda Louie You were working on an ORBAT

Bear in mind the Commonwealth SOldier Programme probably helped - 10% of the British ARmy now come from this.

[Louied]

I've been tardy posting the ORBAT. Hopefully this weekend since I'll be riding out Hurricane Irene I'll have time to send the draft out. I have to thank Rainbow for all his ideas, insight, and overall outstanding help as it fleshed itself out. I am also working on the IRL ORBAT of BAOR for June 1989, with all attached TA units. I've pretty much have everything down just a matter of typing it in. The only part that might still be "in progress" is the RE section. The official history of the RE vol. XII was supposed to be out this year covering 1980-2000 but it was put back to 2012. Also planning on (in the long term) doing a lineage book on TA units from 1908-2008.

[natehale1971]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states

Recruits would gain dual citizenship status (Citizenship from their home country and British Citizenship) for their service

[Brother in Arms]

Rainbowsix wrote:

"Perhaps HSF troops could be issued DPM jackets with OG trousers"

Peradua wrote:

"and puttees"

I say bring back puttees they are the shit....They look hard core especially with the DPM uniform. They are way cooler than the gaitors the Royal marines wore during the falklands.

(Sorry thats all I have to add to this thread.)

[Fusilier]

Does the British Armed Forces still recruit from the Commonwealth nations not recuirt troops to the Canadian Army, or Austrialian Army or Kenyan Army... but recruit them for the British Army itself

the reason I am asking, is that we know that the British recruits the Ghurkhas... couldn't the British also be using a similar program to recruit from the Commonwealth states

The recruiting numbers are capped at 10%. Raising that would be difficult.

[natehale1971]

The recruiting numbers are capped at 10%. Raising that would be difficult.

How so what caused the capping the number at 10%

So far this is the outline of the OOB of the British Army for what i'm doing. Divisions aren't completely manned... some might only have 2 Brigades and divisional support personnel.

I British Corps (British Army of the Rhine)
- 1st Armoured Division
- 2rd Infantry Division
- 3nd Armoured Division
II British Corps (British Army of the Rhine)
- 4th Armoured Division
- 5th Infantry Division
- 6th Division
III British Corps (British Army of the Thames)
- Home Guard Division (England)
- Home Guard Division (Scotland)
- Home Guard Division (Wales)
- Home Guard Division (Northern Ireland)
IV British Corps (British Army of the Euphrates)
- 7th Division
- 8th Division
V British Corps (British Army of the <>) Asia & Pacific Rim
- 9th Division
VI British Corps (British Army of the Nile) Africa
- 10th Division
VII British Corps (British Army of the Amazon)
- 11th Division
VIII British Corps (British Army of the Danube)
- 12th Division

[Tombot]

Exactly... The Black Winter that saw the Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe opening a massive can of whop-ass ...

That reminded me of something:
(Since were having several british-themed threads right now)

http://www.blackwinter.freeservers.com/

(Did not check the archives on this). I liked that novel, and had some alternate stuff about BAOR, a british recongroup, and so on.
Did any of you read this, and maybe used it for a game somehow

I liked the notion of parts of BAOR planning their own "Going Home" from the city of Hamburg in early 2001, and expecting a hostile reception by the british army in southern england, because BAOR didnt retreat early, as ordered before.

[natehale1971]

I loved it. It gave me the inspiration to star myown T2k novella.