Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Recommissioned US Navy ships

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    The Suez has been discussed a few times before and the consensus seems to be that it's closed. In the mid 50's a number of ships were sunk in the channel blocking it (on the order of Egyptian President Nasser) so we know it's quite possible.
    A similar situation could be assumed in T2K - ships sunk, mines laid, and as at least one member of this forum has suggested, the area subjected to nukes.

    With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

    The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

    If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

    Could ships make better than 16 knots Undoubtedly a few certainly could, however convoys are restricted to the slowest vessel. In WWII, this was as little as 3 knots. Something else to remember is the majority of TF34 was made up of "a hodge-podge collection of container ships, general cargo ships and tankers, excursion ships, and smaller vessels felt large enough to survive the crossing". Most of these ships would be lucky to have received much in the way of preventative maintenance since 1997 and it would seem unlikely any would be capable of their full theoretical speed. The John Hancock itself is likely to be suffering battle damage (as would any other military vessels).

    6,000 troops is a lot. Even if the Tarawa was available and seaworthy, it's only rated to carry 1,900 marines. Additional ships would certainly be needed (which I propose would be mainly tankers to take advantage of the oil available in the Middle East for the possible voyage back to Germany). A tanker would be needed to accompany these ships too as the Cape of Good Hope route is about 1,000 miles further than the Tarawa's range.

    With 33,730 cubic feet available for vehicles, and an M1 tank being approximately 2,500 cubic feet, only about a dozen tanks can fit. Given that restriction, the Omega orders to turn over all vehicles to the Germans and the need to feed and house 6,000 troops for a month, I just can't see any tanks going to Iran even in the unlikely event Tarawa was available.

    One other piece of evidence against the Tarawa going to the Middle East is the list of US ships contained in the RDF Sourcebook. Note that the order of battle in that book is as of the 1st of January 2001, only shortly after the arrival of the reinforcements. Note also those reinforcements would have to be included in the OOB presented. There's a very good chance that the majority of the reinforcements would still be in the Bandar Abbas area (not really enough time to disburse them all to their new units).
    If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

    Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

    Mors ante pudorem

    Comment


    • #92
      Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF

      and missing ships doesnt mean anything - Frank said that the French had a naval squadron in the area and then left them out of the OOB - so leaving out US ships could also have been done

      You can tell by looking at the US vehicle guide versus the RDF

      24th Mech
      July 1, 2000 - 2000 men, 9 M1A2
      Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 18 AFV

      101st

      July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 4 AH-64
      Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 4 AH-64, 12 UH-60

      9th ID

      July 1, 2000 - 1500 men, 12 LAV-75
      Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men, 16 AFV

      82nd
      July 1, 2000 -3000 men, 7 AFV
      Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 12 AFV

      6th ACCB
      July 1, 2000 - 600 men 12 AH-64
      Jan 1, 2001 - 1100 men, 6 OH-58, 12 AH-64

      1st Marine
      July 1, 2000 - 3000 men, 6 M1
      Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 16 AFV
      3rd Marine
      July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 5 M1
      Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 12 AFV

      Add up the difference and what do you get

      4000 men
      35 AFV's
      12 UH-60 helos
      6 OH-58 helos

      meaning 2000 men havent been accounted for yet in the formations or they took losses in men and AFV's between June and Jan and they were made up

      So that makes a possible 3rd Armored Division transfer even more likely along with possibly the other 1000 men being assigned with the 18 helos

      they had 5000 men and 54 AFV after all and that definitely would give the RDF the reinforcements seen above

      and the remaining men and AFV's may not have arrived yet - its says the first of 6000 reinforcements arrived in Dec of 2000 - it doesnt say that they had all arrived

      so there it is Leg - its canon that tanks and helos were brought from Europe to the RDF in the December 2000 reinforcement
      Last edited by Olefin; 04-08-2012, 02:23 PM.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Olefin View Post
        Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF
        See my post here http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.phpp=44789&postcount=7 refuting this assumption.
        If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

        Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

        Mors ante pudorem

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post
          With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

          The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

          If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.
          Thanks for doing the leg work on those numbers, Leg An around the Cape trip would work fine. And in my last campaign I had the main Omega fleet sailing north of Scotland, too.
          sigpic "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli

          Comment


          • #95
            if you look at A Rock in Troubled Waters you see the following

            "USS Bigelow (Forest Sherman/HuICClass): Seven of
            this class of warship were mothballed at Philadelphia. Work
            began early in January 1997 to bring them into service. Only
            by working overtime with a greatly swollen work force were
            five of them combat-ready by Thanksgiving, 1998.Two were
            destroyed in port; two others were subsequently lost at sea,
            presumably to enemy submarines. Of the surviving three,
            two are based at Norfolk (Mamley DD 940 and Blandy DD
            943) and one (Bigelow) at Cape May. They rarely put to sea,
            due to a lack of fuel. Their last mission was escorting the
            TF34 convoy in for the final third of the journey to Norfolk."

            Ok so we know that DD 931 Forrest Sherman was there, as was Mamley, Blandy and Bigelow. That would make Sherman as one of the ones lost.

            So what would be the other three Forrest Shermans lost there - anyone have any idea what other of her class were in storage at Philadelphia or is this not match the historical record.

            By the way Turner Joy is in Bremerton WA and was a museum ship so she may have been one of the old DD's lost in the final battle where the Virginia got so badly damaged.

            Comment


            • #96
              By the way have an interesting idea of a potential recommissioned submarine for the USN or perhaps the Iranians for the Twilight War

              USS Trout (SS-566)

              she was sold to the Iranians but her crew abandoned her before she could be delivered in 1979

              she sat around for a long time and was shuttled around to various places but she was operational

              you have to wonder if she was either sold to the Iranians when the war started or possibly if she was refitted at the same time as the Forrest Shermans

              she is conventional not nuclear so fuel would be a concern - but she would be a potential operational US submarine that could be used for ops in places like the Caribbean or Mexico - or even as a way to get characters to either New England or New York for the modules set there

              and she wouldnt be a big issue for canon - and old Tang class sub is not even remotely like having a second SSN in service

              not even sure if they could find torpedoes for her unless they got some overseas since I am pretty sure she used only the older Mk27 and Mk 37 torpedoes and except for some converted to mines they would have all been sold long before 1995

              Comment


              • #97
                I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.
                THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Forest Sherman Class DD

                  The Forest Sherman class consisted of 18 ships. The ones I've highlighted in RED below weren't stricken until 1990. They seem like the best candidates to have stayed in some form of mobilization reserve and preserved in T2Kverse. That's nine ships, plus a test ship conversion. Two more were stricken in 1988/1989.

                  The ships you listed work, except for Manly DD-940. She'd been stricken for almost 14 years and was likely in terrible material condition.

                  It's basically AH, so I see no reason not to say they were all at the Philadelphia Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility if that's what you wanted to do.

                  *************************************************

                  USS Forest Sherman DD-931
                  * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Stored at Philadelphia.

                  USS John Paul Jones DD-932
                  * Stricken 1985. Stored at Suisan Bay

                  USS Barry DD-933
                  * Museum ship at Washington Navy Yard from 1984.

                  USS Decatur DD-936
                  * Stricken 1988. Converted into Self Defense Test Ship and served on West Coast 1993-2004.

                  USS Davis DD-937
                  * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap.

                  USS Jonas Ingram DD-938
                  * Stricken 1983. SINKEX July 1988.

                  USS Manley DD-940
                  * Stricken 1983. Sold for scrap in 1992.

                  USS Du Pont DD-941
                  * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap 1992.

                  USS Bigelow DD-942
                  * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. SINKEX 2003.

                  USS Blandy DD-943
                  * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Scrapped 1996.

                  USS Mullinnix DD-944
                  * Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1992.

                  USS Hull DD-945
                  * Stricken 1983. SINKEX 1998 off southern California.

                  USS Edson DD-946
                  * Stricken 1989. Stored at Philadelphia.

                  USS Somers DD-947
                  * Stricken 1988. SINKEX 1998 near Hawaii.

                  USS Morton DD-948
                  * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrapping in 1992.

                  USS Parsons DD-949
                  * Stricken 1984. SINKEX 1989.

                  USS Richard S. Edwards DD-950
                  * Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1997.

                  USS Turner Joy DD-951
                  * Stricken 1990. Museum ship in Bremerton, WA since 1992.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by raketenjagdpanzer View Post
                    I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.
                    My guess is that they are focused on keeping whatever survived the Twilight War and made it home running for as long as they can. Beyond that, getting some shipyards back into production and building coastal patrol ships for anti-piracy and fisheries protection seems like about all the USN will be up for. IOW, building small Coast Guard cutters, but painted haze gray instead of white.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by James1978 View Post
                      The Forest Sherman class consisted of 18 ships. The ones I've highlighted in RED below weren't stricken until 1990. They seem like the best candidates to have stayed in some form of mobilization reserve and preserved in T2Kverse. That's nine ships, plus a test ship conversion. Two more were stricken in 1988/1989.

                      The ships you listed work, except for Manly DD-940. She'd been stricken for almost 14 years and was likely in terrible material condition.

                      It's basically AH, so I see no reason not to say they were all at the Philadelphia Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility if that's what you wanted to do.

                      *************************************************

                      USS Forest Sherman DD-931
                      * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Stored at Philadelphia.

                      USS John Paul Jones DD-932
                      * Stricken 1985. Stored at Suisan Bay

                      USS Barry DD-933
                      * Museum ship at Washington Navy Yard from 1984.

                      USS Decatur DD-936
                      * Stricken 1988. Converted into Self Defense Test Ship and served on West Coast 1993-2004.

                      USS Davis DD-937
                      * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap.

                      USS Jonas Ingram DD-938
                      * Stricken 1983. SINKEX July 1988.

                      USS Manley DD-940
                      * Stricken 1983. Sold for scrap in 1992.

                      USS Du Pont DD-941
                      * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap 1992.

                      USS Bigelow DD-942
                      * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. SINKEX 2003.

                      USS Blandy DD-943
                      * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Scrapped 1996.

                      USS Mullinnix DD-944
                      * Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1992.

                      USS Hull DD-945
                      * Stricken 1983. SINKEX 1998 off southern California.

                      USS Edson DD-946
                      * Stricken 1989. Stored at Philadelphia.

                      USS Somers DD-947
                      * Stricken 1988. SINKEX 1998 near Hawaii.

                      USS Morton DD-948
                      * Stricken 1990. Sold for scrapping in 1992.

                      USS Parsons DD-949
                      * Stricken 1984. SINKEX 1989.

                      USS Richard S. Edwards DD-950
                      * Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1997.

                      USS Turner Joy DD-951
                      * Stricken 1990. Museum ship in Bremerton, WA since 1992.
                      Thanks for the list!

                      Well lets see - so you have Manley (who was probably the hardest to restore if she had been laid up that long), Blandy and Bigelow as canon restored and still afloat in A Rock in Troubled Waters. Forrest Sherman and Edson in Philly in real life and possibly the two that got sunk in port.

                      Task Force 115 in canon had five weary destroyers, one of which was the Decatur, who was sunk in the battle with the Russian task force. One of the destroyers is sunk by a submarine, and per Troubled Waters two of the destroyers are sunk by subs so we can assume one of them is one of the destroyers put back into shape from Philly.

                      Decatur was a PACFLT ship so most likely she came from Forrest Shermans who where in storage on the West Coast or Hawaii and were put back into shape there as well.

                      Barry is definitely gone when Washington got nuked and Ingram and Parsons are gone in Sinkex long before the war.

                      I have Edwards as being on station at Kenya - was from notes that Frank Frey had posted on USN Task Force at Kenya and will be in the Kenya module I am working on that will include canon info from Frank Frey (at least as far as his notes go) on what USN ships were there

                      So that leaves three gone for sure without need for mention in the canon, five sunk in canon (between Satellite Down and Troubled Waters), four still afloat, and six that could be afloat or could be some of the other three destroyers mentioned in Satellite Down of which two were sunk in the fight with the Russian DD's and one was damaged by a sub but not at the final fight and possibly is sitting damaged at a West Coast base.

                      thanks again james

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by raketenjagdpanzer View Post
                        I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.
                        Originally posted by James1978 View Post
                        My guess is that they are focused on keeping whatever survived the Twilight War and made it home running for as long as they can. Beyond that, getting some shipyards back into production and building coastal patrol ships for anti-piracy and fisheries protection seems like about all the USN will be up for. IOW, building small Coast Guard cutters, but painted haze gray instead of white.
                        One thing that I noticed was missed in every discussion of what was hit and not hit regarding US shipbuilding (And refurbishment for that matter) capability is Bath Iron Works. Just about every Destroyer in US Navy Service, from the Spruance, the Tico's, and the Burke's was all built in this one shipyard tucked away on the Maine Coast. They have dry building slips for three 800' vessels (one of which is much longer than the others), and three more older fashioned wet slipways about the right size for Figs and possibly three more Burke's. If you go to Googlemaps, and look it up, you'll see one on a slip, one had just left the floating dry dock to be fitted out, and they are laying out plates for three more on the old fashioned slipways.
                        Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon.

                        Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.

                        Comment


                        • I think it's worth reiterating that you don't have to destroy the shipyard itself to render it useless for building or even just repairing ships. Take out one or more of the power generation, transportation, raw materials, workforce, or even food stocks in the area and you render more than just one industry virtually useless. The trick is knowing exactly where to hit to cause the most, and longest lasting disruption.
                          It's not like a few hundred years ago when if you had a suitable beach, a nearby forest and a few dozen men with axes and you could turn out warships...
                          If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

                          Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

                          Mors ante pudorem

                          Comment


                          • The Bath Iron Works would be perfect for a mission similar to Last Submarine - but instead make it a commando mission to seize control of it from New America and then have MilGov move assets from Cape May and Norfolk to get the facility up and running again

                            Sure it would take a long time - but considering most of the remaining USN ships would be able to fit in a facility like that it would be perfect for that use.

                            You could even use it in combo with the Corpus Christi - i.e. she is hooked up to provide power while they get the power generating station going again at the Bath Iron Works.

                            And that works great with the canon of MilGov working to repair places that would be of benefit for military and also getting food - i.e. if you can repair DD's there you can also repair fishing boats and other ships.

                            You arent going to get all of Maine on its feet again - just the area around the Iron Works - a la what they are doing in A Rock in Troubled Waters for instance - its not all of NJ but just one small area that provides a big benefit for both the state and MilGov - i.e. the naval facilities in that area that also can be used to base fishing vessels out of.

                            Comment


                            • I have done a bit of work on the Maine coast--all non-canon, of course, but folded into the existing body of work so as to create as few wrinkles as possible. Others are free to use as much or as little of Poseidons Rifles as they see fit. In Poseidons Rifles, Bath Iron Works is firmly under the control of First District, USCG. Shortages of everything have prevented the facility from doing much besides repairing USCGC Gallatin and whatever shipping Milgov sends up to the District. The foundation of the food situation is fishing. Under the protective watch of Coast Guard cutters, fishing fleets from the District exploit the waters off coastal Maine and as far away as the Grand Banks. A truce that is much warmer than Milgov would like marks the relationship between the District and the United Brotherhood of Fishermen (UBF)(Last Submarine) up through 4/1/01. By the end of 2000, survivors in the District cantonments are growing their own food just like everybody else; but the fishing got a relatively high population through that first winter and growing season. As a result, about 85% of the surviving population of Maine lives on a narrow coastal strip under the protection of the United States Coast Guard.
                              “We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Panther Al View Post
                                One thing that I noticed was missed in every discussion of what was hit and not hit regarding US shipbuilding (And refurbishment for that matter) capability is Bath Iron Works. Just about every Destroyer in US Navy Service, from the Spruance, the Tico's, and the Burke's was all built in this one shipyard tucked away on the Maine Coast. They have dry building slips for three 800' vessels (one of which is much longer than the others), and three more older fashioned wet slipways about the right size for Figs and possibly three more Burke's. If you go to Googlemaps, and look it up, you'll see one on a slip, one had just left the floating dry dock to be fitted out, and they are laying out plates for three more on the old fashioned slipways.
                                Nitpick.

                                The entire Spruance and Kidd class were built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS.

                                Bath Iron Works and Ingalls Shipbuilding split the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke class.

                                The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates were split between Bath Iron Works, Todd Pacific - San Pedro, and Todd Pacific - Seattle.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X