Olefin's Twilight 2000 Universe thread

[HorseSoldier]

And I will take an old tank with a 75mm gun on it any day over an armored car with a few machine guns or a gun truck.

Sure, a tank is better than an armored car.

However, take one of each at the start line of an offensive operation in the summer of 2000 in the Twilight War logistics situation and I bet the tank is deadlined and inoperable within 30 days due to lack of spares, available spares themselves being 50 years old, no one knowing how to keep the thing running, and vehicles from that era not being made, automotively, to last as long as more modern equipment.

And that obviously doesn't even touch on the ammo (or lack thereof) issue. Having some experience shooting WW2 vintage (1943, Des Moines Ordnance Plant) .50 cal API-T ammo . . . I'd be excited to watch (from a distance and definitely not in the tank) someone put some vintage 75mm ammo through an M24.

Meanwhile, the light armored vehicle built on a modified 5 ton chassis is trucking along (burning less fuel in the process), using chassis and automotive components that are so well supported in the logistical system that even in Y2K it may be possible to get spares, able to draw on a big enough body of trained maintenance personnel that even in Y2K experienced and familiar mechanics can likely be found (and if not civilian commercial diesel truck mechanics can cross over pretty easily) and reliant on types of ammunition that are, again, common enough that they can probably be kept in the fight on most any T2K battlefield.

At the big picture level, it's logistics that will win (or lose) the fight for either of the rival US governments circa 2000. Systems so old that "legacy" doesn't even begin to describe them aren't going to be worth the effort to get into the fight or keep in the fight -- if it is even possible at all.

[Olefin]

Feb 16, 2001

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry Division makes contact with the Harrisburg Garrison; a force composed of state police, retired military and locally raised militia, under the control of the last elected governor of PA. They find that Three Mile Island didn't suffer any EMP damage as it was shut down for overhaul and repairs during the attack. It is fully functional but only has fuel for producing 20 percent of its rated power for another five years, or ten percent for ten years. The 28th is ordered to support the restoration of power to the York UD-BMY plant as well as the Harley plant in York to restart production as well as assist the Governor in restoring stability to central PA.

MilGov is excited to learn that the guard force there kept the plant intact and in working order. The inventory at the York plant has shown there are enough parts and vehicles stored out of the weather in various buildings to be able to produce 88 remanufactured or reset Bradley AFV's of various types, 16 remanufactured M109A5 SPG, 14 new build FAASV, 42 new build M8 AGS, 12 reset M9ACE and 26 remanufactured M88A2 vehicles. That will allow MilGov to rearm to some extent the forces recently evacuated from Europe.

A significant amount of the former plant personnel including some 38 trained welders have been found still living in and around York and have been promised food and safe accommodations for them and their families while they work to build these vehicles, which will take quite some time to deliver them all.

Beyond the fully salvageable vehicles that can be completed there are also a large amount of vehicles that can be stripped for spare parts as well as additional stored parts that can be used to make vehicles operational at division depots throughout the MilGov area of control.

California

The 177the Brigade (OPFOR Brigade), which has held Fort Irwin since the Mexican invastion, begins a limited offensive to clear the marauders from the Brigada Ensenada from its scattered positions in and around Barstow in preparation for an attack on the 1st Brigada's position near Edwards Air Force Base along with the 40th Infantry.

February 24, 2001

A small tanker arrives in Norfolk with oil from Gulf Forty to fuel the ships that will bring the 1st Armored Division to Texas as well as to allow the remaining navy ships at Norfolk and Cape May to begin limited operations again.

Feb 27, 2001 – Bears Den

CivGov announces a major victory as the last of the 13th Army forces in Lvov surrenders to a large force of partisans and the 27th NATO Tank Division (which is nominally under CivGov control). The mass escape of 2500 Chinese and NATO POWS from the POW camp near Lvov, engineered by the partisans, helped immensely with this, with the NATO troops alone increasing the 1st Armored Brigade to nearly 600 men. What is left of the 13th Army has retreated to Ternopol.

This victory was made possible by the sabotaging of the SCUD missile that was to attack Drogobych, which instead detonated directly over the 128th before it attacked the city. The 128th followed its orders and attacked the city and overwhelmed its garrison but the virus left them unable to resist the ensuing attack of the 27th Tank Division, who captured most of their equipment including three of their four tanks.

The 27th was then able to refuel and stop the attack of the 318th, pushing them back and capturing many of their vehicles as well as they ran out of fuel. A siege of Lvov and Olesko began, which led to the capture of Olesko Castle in early January. Much of the Lvov Guard either deserted or surrendered as the 27th fought their way into the city.

[The Rifleman]

In some cases they would have fabricated parts at machine shops from 40 and 50 year old drawings.

Back in the day, every tank and mech battalion had machine shops with some impressive tools in them. They would actually make parts for our M60A3s if they didn't have them. Obviously, some things were beyond us making, like optics, but you'd be surprised what they could do, even out in the field! As an aside, the M60s are pretty darm similar to an M48, which is only somewhat evolved from the M47. So I'd assume that a Chaffee would not be that much harder to work on.

[Olefin]

thats one reason the 28th is being tasked to get power restored to the York plant - between it and Harley they have a lot of machinging equipment and expertise - they can make parts if they have to, fabricate harnesses and the York plant can cut armor plate to size and weld it.

A very good resource to have for MilGov.

[The Rifleman]

Recovery should not be that hard. You've got to get good security in place with loyal people. If you can do that, then people will stick around because they live in a world where survival is not a given. PA also has farmland. If the farmers can concentrate on farming and not fighting, then there is excess for for workers. Those guys can get to work restoring power, fixing machines..... it all just comes down to being able to control the ground you're on.

[Olefin]

thats why my GM had the 28th go there - who better to defend ground in PA than units from the PA Army National Guard

[The Rifleman]

Its smart. They have a vested interest in seeing recovery start at home.

[HorseSoldier]

Also increases risk of desertion, though, I'd think -- you're from Pennsylvania, you're sent to Pennsylvania, but the unit's AOR doesn't cover your home community (or you're just sick of military service and home is nearby) there is going to be a stronger motivation to take off than for a unit in Pennsylvania that originated in, say, Florida or Oregon.

[Olefin]

not if they are properly motivated - i.e. guys if you take off then the state is screwed and we wont be able to protect anyone but with us all hanging together we can start here in central PA and then expand until we have the whole state back in one piece - of course you have to do it as well - that will keep them together for a while but if its a year later and they are still sitting in York and Harrisburg then you will have some real issues begin

[The Rifleman]

Also increases risk of desertion, though, I'd think -- you're from Pennsylvania, you're sent to Pennsylvania, but the unit's AOR doesn't cover your home community (or you're just sick of military service and home is nearby) there is going to be a stronger motivation to take off than for a unit in Pennsylvania that originated in, say, Florida or Oregon.

A valid concern. But I think that the way to do it is send your national guard battalions back to the same geographical area they came from. Now they aren't just defending their country, but their home.

Imgaine the white death is coming. I'd much rather have my guard buddies around then just be by myself.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In '89 during the Tianamen Square protests/riots, the first units deployed were army units directly in the Tianamen military district. Commanders found the men reluctant to put the boot in against "their own" people, so those units were rotated out and replaced with units from the rural areas. It's my understanding that, at the time at least, there was a lot of tension between those two groups. The rural folk, the farmers, looked down on the folks in the city as decadent and "westernized" (read: lazy) and folks in the city regarded the other provinces as simplistic and uneducated (read: counterrevolutionary). This was the perfect match for the ChiCom junta: both sides hated each other and the military needed little provocation to kill a few dozen/hundred demonstrators.

Food for thought.

[Olefin]

Before anyone thinks I am trying stir up conflict here, keep in mind this is my feelings and those of my GM when we played back in college, on why the events of Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness did not happen in that campaign. As you have already seen canon took several turns already - but this details why my GM threw those modules in the trash (which I agreed with at the time) for the subsequent events in the timeline. Thus this is not about canon - its about how my timeline differs from canon and why and how it does.

Remember that campaign is where this timeline comes from and how it diverged from canon. Thus this is not an attempt to refute the canon and say we (my GM and those who played in that campaign) are somehow right and the canon is wrong. It is how we approached the canon events of those two modules and decided, as a group, that those events would not be part of our campaign world and thus eventually this timeline.

March 2001 – September 2001

The world wide changes in weather that bring a drought that kills most of the remaining population of the United States of America that is in Kidnapped and Howling Wilderness and mentioned elsewhere does not occur in my timeline as they did not occur in the campaign my GM ran with us in college for the reasons given below.

Reasons:

1) The weather effects as depicted in those two modules completely fail to mention the effect of the El Nino and the Gulf Stream on North American weather. Neither of those two would have been affected by the nuclear strikes on North America. The Gulf Stream in particular has a huge effect on bringing moisture into the eastern part of the United States as well as moderating temperatures, no matter what happens in the continent itself.

2) The drought as depicted would take a much bigger climatic event than the nuclear strikes as depicted in Twilight 2000. To bring on a change of that magnitude would have required almost the entire arsenal of both sides to be used with much bigger mega tonnage, mostly as ground bursts in order to generate the needed dust and debris – in which case most of the world would be dead from radiation effects already. The nuclear powers avoided ground bursts as much as possible from the descriptions given in various source books and modules – and thus the strikes, while numerous, lack the ability to change weather on a global scale.

3) If anything the effect of debris and dust thrown into the air would have produced more rainfall and snowfall, not less. Thus you wouldn't be looking at drought but increased rainfall, especially in the areas where the nukes hit the hardest.

4) Beyond the scientific reasons, the simple fact is that the uber drought and plagues, as described in Kidnapped, would have destroyed the population of the United States, Canada and Mexico beyond the ability of those nations to be able to rebuild in any time less than multiple centuries.

The mass starvations would have left those still alive totally susceptible to plague and other illnesses to the point that there would have been very few survivors. Thus the whole Twilight 2300 AD timeline, as presented by GDW, cannot occur as it relates to North America, with this drought and plague. And without the US, Mexico, Canada and Texas recovering per that timeline, 2300 AD falls apart as a possible future.

Also as presented in Kidnapped, almost all the areas that show any ability to survive the drought are under the control of New America. CivGov basically has no area left under their control that is survivable and MilGov has Colorado Springs while New America has a lot better situation overall – which is pretty convenient topography indeed. Thus the final defeat of New America becomes a non-event as they would end up being by far the most numerious afterward. And again so much for Twilight 2300 AD.

After much discussion, our GM and the few players who were still interested in the game decided to throw both modules into the trash and we continued, ignoring the drought and any reference to it in the modules we used, until the group finally broke up after college.

Thus, while there will be local droughts and plague events in 2001 AD in my timeline, there will be no massive drought and destruction of the remaining population of the United States per what we discussed. As I have seen on this forum, that position is a very common one among its members, though not in any way universal. Kidnapped and Howling Wilderness thus will not make any kind of appearance in the Olefin timeline – to me and my GM when we played, they are as much apocrypha as City of Angels is or as realistic as the scenarios in Twilight Nightmares.

[Rockwolf66]

Speaking upthread about old ammo...


I found This Video

At the Time I was looking at a M9A1 Autocannon for $5,000 and I was trying to find the ammo to go with it.

[Olefin]

March 5, 2001 Med Cruise (as played by my group)

The repairs on the Corpus Christi have been completed and she leaves for the Mediterranean on her mission. She has on board about two thirds of a normal crew complement, nineteen torpedoes, four Harpoon missiles and three Tomahawk missiles, as well as spare parts needed for three other SSNs. In addition she has on board four DIA agents, military spare parts and supplies and ten men from the New England strike team.

She travels across the Atlantic, enters the Med and proceeds to Sicily and picks up one DIA agent and drops off another. Her next stop is then Yugoslavia, where contact is made with DIA agents working to turn the 42nd Infantry Division over to MilGov. Two more agents are dropped off here where they join up with a group of officers friendly to MilGov to deliver a bribe of parts for the divisions commander that could put a dozen of his M60 tanks back into operation, plus some 48 shells for those tanks. On the way out the Corpus Christi attacks and sinks an Italian DD on patrol with a single torpedo.

Her next stop is at an Israeli naval base where parts are dropped off to repair SSN-666, the USS Hawkbill (Sturgeon class), which is in port there, as well as for SSN-773, USS Cheyenne (Los Angeles class), which is at Bahrain. In addition she transfers six torpedoes and one Harpoon missile for the Hawbill. Cheyenne has most of her weapons load out still but Hawbill was down to her last two torpedoes. She then leaves for Greece after picking up a large shipment of weapons from the Israelis.

In Greece she picks up a DIA agent who has the location of two scientists who have vital information for MilGov. The sub travels thru the Dardanelles and drops off the strike team, who make contact with the Romanian resistance fighters after three days that have the scientists, and agree to exchange them for the weapons on the submarine.

The submarine then proceeds to the contact point, where in the process of unloading the weapons they are attacked by Soviet units after being betrayed by an agent in the resistance group. The initial Soviet attack force is destroyed in a hard fight but at the cost of a third of the resistance members. A radio taken off a dying Soviet officer reveals a second Soviet attack with tank support is on its way, and the strike team along with the resistance force sets an ambush quickly.

They are able to destroy both Soviet tanks and three APCs, leading to a Soviet withdrawal as their morale breaks. The resistance commander gives them a message for the captain as he loads the weapons in several trucks. The submarine then moves off shore and fires the three Tomahawk missiles, using the positional fix he received from the resistance leader as to where he was exactly on a map of the Romanian coast, at the Ploesti oil fields and refinery complexes there. He then reveals they were TLAM-N nuclear missiles and that MilGov is counting on this strike to win the war by destroying the last source of gasoline for the Soviets in Europe.

The submarine commander, after reading the message given him by the resistance leader, gives the order to take the sub as quickly as possible for Portsmouth, UK to drop off the last of its parts. Clearly the message has disturbed him.

[Snake Eyes]

The submarine then moves off shore and fires the three Tomahawk missiles, using the positional fix he received from the resistance leader as to where he was exactly on a map of the Romanian coast, at the Ploesti oil fields and refinery complexes there. He then reveals they were TLAM-N nuclear missiles and that MilGov is counting on this strike to win the war by destroying the last source of gasoline for the Soviets in Europe.

That there is my kind of hard core.