Olefin's Twilight 2000 Universe thread

[dragoon500ly]

"The 278th Armored Regiment, reinforced to 600 men and 4 M47 Chaffee tanks as well as a dozen HMMVW Fire Support vehicles and five converted civilian armored cars is sent to Memphis to assist the 197th Infantry Brigade in operations in Tennessee."


Ouch...the M24 Chaffee was a late WWII/Korean War light tank, surprisingly there are still spare parts for these vehicles in various warehouses, these are intended to support various MAPs (mostly in South America and the Far East). There are 72 still housed (and I should know, I counted every one of them thangs in 2007!!!). The complete vehicles are slowly being stripped of parts and were heading for the smelters.

The M-47 Patton is also still in storage (some 300 in Italy per "Janes Military Balance") as well as in reserve with the Belgian Army (100), another 200 in the US (currently being expended as hard targets on various USAF and Army gunnery ranges).

[Olefin]

Having the US have to use the Chaffee shows just how little they still had left as to armor in late 2000. Basically they are scraping the underside of the bottom of the barrel. But against guys armed with hunting rifles and Chinese made AK's its a very effective weapon still.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Having the US have to use the Chaffee shows just how little they still had left as to armor in late 2000. Basically they are scraping the underside of the bottom of the barrel. But against guys armed with hunting rifles and Chinese made AK's its a very effective weapon still.

This got mentioned when I brought up the notion of M4 Sherman tanks being used here and there 'stateside. When all you have is as you say a shotgun or CV-16, anything the other side has with treads and armor is pretty scary.

[dragoon500ly]

Just because the hulls are available, doesn't mean that they are "runners". The M24/M47s haven't been operated since the late 1950s/early 1960s. They are slowly being stripped of parts and then sent to the smelters/gunnery ranges.

Outside of the military, there simply are not a lot of operational tanks (mostly in the hands of various reenactors or collectors) these vehicles are demilled, usually with the breechs being removed (or welded in place), the barrels having three holes drilled through (they can and are often plugged but only a fool would try to use the main gun). So you are left with a vehicle that might mount a machine gun or rifle. Still, as long as it runs, it will be a formidable vehicle.

The static display vehicles are normally stripped of anything usable and then demilled. They might be of use as pillboxes...or even as a bluff.

But then there is the flaw of tracked vehicles, they require an enormous logistical chain to keep them operational, POL-wise, the average tank gets really horrible mileage (along the lines of 1-3 gallons per mile), spare parts are also a problem, there is a reenactor in Jackson MS with a M-24, his tank has sit in his garage, lacking fuel pumps for its engine as well as a blown transmission. And as the years go by, parts are getting harder and harder to acquire, which means that you need some superb mechanics and a very well equipped workship to manufacture parts.

In a Twilight world, at least in the US, you are more likely to see bank armored cars, with jury-rigged mounts, or even gun trucks with "sandwich" armor.

[Olefin]

Thats why there are so few Chaffees available - i.e. they scrounged around for any armor that was still functional and put the best of the bunch into operation. In some cases they would have fabricated parts at machine shops from 40 and 50 year old drawings.

And they managed to get 4 Chaffees running and available. But four light tanks are better than using old armored cars. And they have those too - i.e. five converted civilian armored cars.

Glad to hear the comments - keep them coming!

[HorseSoldier]

Just because the hulls are available, doesn't mean that they are "runners". The M24/M47s haven't been operated since the late 1950s/early 1960s. They are slowly being stripped of parts and then sent to the smelters/gunnery ranges.

(snip)

In a Twilight world, at least in the US, you are more likely to see bank armored cars, with jury-rigged mounts, or even gun trucks with "sandwich" armor.

Agreed. Unless vintage armor was sitting in a consolidated storage facility with warehouses of spare parts on scene and warehouses of ammo for vintage weapons systems that have been out of the inventory for decades, getting old stuff into the fight is going to be impossible. Even if it makes it into the fight, attrition from maintenance is going to be brutal -- even with lots of spares, there aren't any mechanics and maintainers out there with specialized knowledge for what that particular vehicle needs. (Same applies with a lot of the aircraft out in the boneyard in the desert, only worse so with AFVs that haven't seen service since WW2 or Korea.)

Comparatively, at a big picture level, it would be easier to rebuild (and I mean rebuild, not just slap some field-ex armor on a truck) existing five ton truck chassis into armored cars and arm them with weapons in the inventory. Lower profile than the factory stock truck, with a simple (probably open top) turret armed with .50 cal, Mk-19, or maybe a big hitter with 60mm mortar and a coax MG. A space in the back for sustainment cargo or a fire team worth of guys, maybe with a roof hatch and a couple gun shields and MG mounts ACAV style. Armor rated to stop 7.62 AP covers most of your threats. End result is a light armored vehicle that is adequate for the threat environment found in most of CONUS.

Rather than single point production, which isn't possible, the proponent government (MilGov or CivGov) would have to look at distributing conversion plans and plans for fabricating specialized parts out to the various enclaves. How effectively they could make the program work would vary and I'm sure a lot of variation and modification would take place at the production end.

And that is product designed AFVs, which either side might or might not even bother with, but is an example of a much more workable system than trying to put WW2 vintage armor back in the fight. Complete agreement with dragon that most "AFVs" in America circa 2000 are going to be modified commercial armored cars and Mad Max'ed technicals.

[Olefin]

More timeline

Feb 1, 2001 - Iran

The last of the reinforcements from Europe have arrived and have been distributed among the divisions there. The convoys from Europe, protected by the French as part of their helping the US logistically and otherwise in the Middle East (so they can avoid having to fight the Russians themselves for the oil) have brought a total of 6000 men, 41 tanks, 48 Bradley AFV, 40 LAV-25's and 60 M113 APC's from Europe along with over a 120 HMMVW of various types. In addition some 30 105mm and 18 155mm artillery pieces, 10 M109 SPG's and 30 various AA vehicles have also arrived. Over two dozen helos of various types and spare parts for them were also part of the convoys as well as ammunition to replenish the seriously depleted munitions stores of CENTCOM.

These stores and vehicles were considered separate from the deal made with the Germans for Omega as the fuel needed for the ships came from the French and not from the tanker found floating in the Baltic.

Some 600 men who arrived in early December have just graduated from parachute training, bringing the strength of the 82nd Airborne back up to 3600 men, and another 500 men and six M1A2 tanks are added to the 101st, bringing them up to 4500 men and 6 tanks. The remaining 900 men are put into a replacement pool, giving CENTCOM an operational reserve for the first time in years.

February 6, 2001

Pennsylvania

The 28th Infantry Division moves to the York PA area and makes contact with the York Garrison, a combination of local militia and a US Army battalion left there to safeguard the United Defence-BMY defence plant as well as the Caterpillar and Harley Davidson plants.

All three are still intact, lacking only electrical power to get them back into operation. There is considerable military material including vehicles either in process or in storage for reset or refit at the defence plant. A force of four M8 AGS, one M88A2, two M2 Bradleys, three M109A5 SPG and one FAASV are at the UD-BMY plant. The 28th incorporates a company of 100 men from the Garrison as well as one M109A5 and two AGS into its own force structure.

The reason for the survival of the York plant is found a kilometer away by scouts using rad detectors... a crater surrounded by the still very radioactive debris of a 50kt nuclear warhead that didn't detonate due to a faulty fuse, leaving the plant intact and very useable.

Texas

The Mexicans make another attempt to get the refinery. A combined attack by the Brigada San Luis Potosi and the remnants of Brigada Tampica on Port Isabel is stopped dead as the two USN destroyers, now fully refueled, use naval gunfire to help break up the attack down the narrow peninsula. A US counterattack hits the disorganized Mexicans and shatters both brigades for good. The US forces include a contingent of 60 South Texas Grange members who arrived by boat a week earlier.

February 12, 2001

Outside Batesville AK a patrol is attacked by what the lone survivor identifies as a Goodyear Blimp. Two platoons of the 197th are assembled to find out what is going on.

At Norfolk, the 1st Armored Division is being prepared to be shipped to Texas, with 4 M1 Abrams, 3 M48A5, 4 Stingrays and 2 M109 SPG assigned to it.

A new unit that resurrects a famous name is formed at Norfolk. The 7th Cavalry Regiment, with an initial strength of 400 men mounted on horses, is formed from experienced cavalry troops in the replacement pool. Four M116 75mm pack howitzers, formerly used for ceremonial purposes, are attached to the unit.

Feb 14, 2001 – Europe

Near Riga the US 8th Infantry Division and the 26th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, who have come to an accommodation as allies against the Soviets, along with partisans from the Free Latvian Army, defeat the 11th Soviet Guards Army as they attempt to take the city.

The 40th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, being composed almost entirely of Latvians and Estonians, mutinies and joins with the 26th Guards at a critical moment in the battle, leaving the rear of the 140th Motorized, along with the Army HQ, completely open to being attacked by it and the Free Latvian partisans.

The 11th Guards Army takes catastrophic losses, with the 140th Motorized Rifle Division being totally destroyed in the fighting and the 107th Motorized reduced to scattered pockets of men totaling only some 800 men. The M1's and Stingrays of the 8th, firing from camouflaged positions, along with hunter killer teams armed with RPG-16's destroy the entire Soviet tank force of 36 T-55 tanks in 30 furious minutes of fighting.

The survivors of the 11th Guards Army are mopped up over the next few days by the renegade Soviet units and Latvian partisans. Two hundred ragged survivors eventually make their way back to the Soviet Union.

[Olefin]

As to the Chaffee

Keep in mind that Norway operated them until 1993 in the real world, Uruguay still operates them today and Chile operated them until 1999. And the US, with a lot of its factories shut down by early 1998, would have been raiding every collector, armory, museum and arsenal they could find for tanks and other armored vehicles. So the idea of them being able to put a few back into service is not that farfetched.

And I will take an old tank with a 75mm gun on it any day over an armored car with a few machine guns or a gun truck.

Keep in mind places like http://www.site.ww2mv.com/ for places the military might find old tanks they can use in a desperate situation like the US is in by late 2000 of the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

As to the Chaffee

Keep in mind that... in the real world, Uruguay still operates them today...

Are you sure about that When I lived there in '91-'93, they weren't operational (they were sort of in a perpetual refurbishing status). AFAIK, that hasn't changed since.

I could, however, see a small number of Chaffees operating in CONUS with Mil or CivGov forces during the Twilight War. I like little flavor pieces like that.

This is only a partial excerpt but it might prove helpful:

http://books.google.com/booksid=rZYkHWkVUSQC&pg=PT46&lpg=PT46&dq=m24+chaffee+Uruguay&source=bl&ots=swWa9BWWzq&sig=5I-aIoUR9RsAJMoaZnTDj5xupcM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dhtvULrtHqapiAK6g4GgCw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ

[Olefin]

According to the IISS Military Balance report as of 2010 they still had 16 M-24 and also had 47 M-41 tanks as well. However they very well may be in storage and not active duty by now.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've got an old (ca. 1988/1990) handbook on armor that notes that a few M3 Stuarts are in use in Central America...! I'm sure they're not any longer, but still the thought just tickles me. I think it was El Salvador.

[Olefin]

Have this image of a bunch of marauders running for their lives, with burning jeeps mounting light machine guns littering a town square as this grizzled 75 year old WWII vet and his restored Stuart that he somehow got shells for is kicking their butts.

[Targan]

Have this image of a bunch of marauders running for their lives, with burning jeeps mounting light machine guns littering a town square as this grizzled 75 year old WWII vet and his restored Stuart that he somehow got shells for is kicking their butts.

Love it

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Love it

Yah; even solid-shot 37mm would just wreck your damn afternoon!

[HorseSoldier]

I've got an old (ca. 1988/1990) handbook on armor that notes that a few M3 Stuarts are in use in Central America...! I'm sure they're not any longer, but still the thought just tickles me. I think it was El Salvador.

I believe the government side of the Nicaraguan revolution made use of M5 Stuarts, M8 and M20 armored cars, and probably assorted other WW2 US armor. I think the Sandanistas used a lot of that stuff for subsequent monuments to the Revolution (and of course used older .sov stuff for their own AFV needs).