Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[Olefin]

Well thats why the game being so flexible is a definite asset - in your campaign you can have tanks be very rare and almost out of ammo where in mine they are somewhat more available and in some cases they have full racks (either because its all homemade steel shots or because they either got the ammo legally from the govt or stole it from a depot)

getting parts also makes for good adventures as well

my GM did an adventure as a change of pace using pre-rolled characters where we had to escort three trucks full of ammo, M14's and M16's, spare parts and 90 rounds of 90mm tank ammo from Cairo IL to Green Bay Wisconsin for a militia that had declared for MilGov that needed ammo for two tanks they had and spare parts in exchange for electrical parts and four guys who had worked at power plants and refineries in the past

quite the adventure - the peacetime 9 hour drive took us four days to make the distance due to various issues including fighting off two marauder attacks and negotiating with a third group - and in the end deliveriing the supplies just in time to fight off another marauder group

then turning around and getting home again afterward with the men and electrical equipment

end result - we made it, the refinery under MilGov control and a local power plant had people who could do some repairs and improve efficiency and MilGov control in Wisconsin expanded

[Olefin]

The war starting however may have actually made it easier for some of those tanks and vehicles to be put back into commission - especially once the Russians invaded Alaska.

Now you have the spectre of invading Russians in everyone's minds - and the local collector and his tanks become very important to people and the towns they are in - so getting them back in shape also becomes important.

And you can get all kinds of info, drawings, etc.. - with those in hand its just a case of making the needed parts. So again its one thing with a bolt from the blue war were the US gets nuked on sunny Tuesday morning.

its another where they have been fighting over a year before the nukes hit and people have a whole year to make damn sure that if the Russians do come they have something to fight them with

and they had the internet in 1995-98 - so the ability to get parts and info online was there

[Olefin]

Targan - what do you mean by shadow boxing Honestly never heard that term before and if its in any way a violation of how we should be doing posts here then I will immediately cease it and apologize.

Cynic does raise a good point in the availability of older army trucks - all of which would make great vehicles to turn into gun trucks - which of course is another thread entirely.

[Legbreaker]

Cynic does raise a good point in the availability of older army trucks - all of which would make great vehicles to turn into gun trucks - which of course is another thread entirely.

Note he mentioned specifically the crippling shortage of parts for not just tanks, but ALL military vehicles, especially those with a little age on them...

[Olefin]

and spare parts can be made - I work for a company that routinely gets spare parts made to drawings that were released back in the 1970s' - and you can order TM's from the government easily enough - as I said you have to believe that anyone with an old military vehicle after the war commenced and especially after the Russian landing in Alaska did their best to get that vehicle/AFV/tank into fighting shape.

And vehicles can take a lot of abuse - a few years ago a collector found a bunch (15+ Stuarts) that had been sitting out in the open on a Brazilian ranch under covers since the 1960's, full of hornet nests. Several of them, once the nests were removed, started up immediately and could move on their own power as soon as they were fueled.

These arent high precision systems like today - they can take a lot of abuse, jury rigging,etc.. - most likely in the post TDM world the last Shermans and Stuarts will still be operational long after most modern vehicles have broken down

[Legbreaker]

*throws hands up in disgust*

Sure they can be made, provided there's a whole list of resources available as at least two very knowledgeable members of this forum have stated.

You don't have those prerequisites and your vehicle is so much useless scrap metal - far better to use more modern vehicles for which parts are more easily scavenged.

Old vehicles are simply too much trouble by and large to bother with UNLESS you've got a decent supply chain behind you.

[Targan]

Targan - what do you mean by shadow boxing

Sorry, what I meant by that was you're partly arguing with yourself. It's not a criticism and I acknowledge you've been quite civil in this discussion.

We agree on many things. In fact I've learned much from this thread. It's not the presence of a significant number of obsolete fighting vehicles in the CONUS that I'm arguing against. I think you've done a great job in demonstrating how many are likely to be around. It's their likelihood of being fully functional in most cases that I'm arguing against. Post-nuke I think it would be much harder than you're positing to come up with POL, parts and ammo. Not to mention technical know-how.

[Olefin]

Thanks Targan - now I see what you mean.

I have a different opinion of how many would be functional - but there are different kinds of functionality that still make them useful.

Look at Krakow - they have a bunch of tanks - but only five are really fully functional. The rest still have working guns and thats about it - so they have fourteen tanks - but in reality what they have is 9 turreted steel pillboxes and five functional tanks

And even a tank that doesnt have a main gun working is still very much a deterrent if the enemy doesnt know it isnt working - you have to have a lot of guts to be the one who goes out there to see if the only thing that tank has still working is the .50 mounted on top.

But I would think we can all agree that the discussion has opened up several new ideas for possible missions to either obtain parts, obtain working tanks or do a deal for ammo and parts with people who need them.

[Legbreaker]

Krakow is like comparing apples and oranges when we're talking about the US - other countries, actually in the conflict zones may be another matter altogether.

Krakow's defenders are the remnants of an entire Polish Division, including many of their supporting elements.
A US town/organisation isn't going to be starting from such a position of obvious "strength" - at best they'll have an old vehicle or two, which may have been kept in a semblance of working order by a private owner or group of volunteers before the war. Many of these vehicles as Stainless mentioned, are also unlikely to be armoured, or intended to carry armour.

Tanks, APCs and AFVs in general are absolute BEASTS to maintain, even in peacetime when parts can be sourced from all around the world. Come the break down of civilisation as we know it and, as has been said before, that job becomes near impossible without a decent stock of parts, machinery, skilled technicians, reliable power supply, etc, etc, etc

So, in conclusion, it's possible to find the occasional WWII or Korean era AFVs in militias, but they're far from a common occurrence, regardless of ammo.

[Targan]

So, in conclusion, it's possible to find the occasional WWII or Korean era AFVs in militias, but they're far from a common occurrence, regardless of ammo.

I have to agree with this. It will happen but it won't be common. And as the post-nuke years roll by increasing numbers of those obsolete AFVs in non-official hands will end up being taken by MILGOV/CIVGOV. In many cases it will be done in a fair and/or friendly way, in other cases not, but it will happen. And let's be honest, an obsolete MBT is more likely to stay up and running and supplied with POL/fuel/parts/ammo if it's in MILGOV/CIVGOV hands.

[bobcat]

ans far as getting things operational the older kit has several key advantages

1) most collectors i know and every machine shop around here has a collection of old army training manuals that cover field fabrication of parts. these are from as late as the 1950's so later vehicles would be less likely to be covered but if you know what your doing(which anyone working in a machine shop should) you can make similar parts for the newer kit.

2) most of the vehicles used in ww2 where made in whatever factory was available from actual manufacturer production factories to bicycle factories. because of this the parts were designed to require as little machining as possible while still remaining effective.

3) with gas production at a minimum cars can be used for source material to keep equipment operational.

4) while everyone seems focused on getting the main gun operational many communities will just make due with what they can make operational. ie; raid the local walmart for model rocket parts and mount a rack of barrage rockets on the old M48 in front of the VFW.

now im not saying every town, village, and sewing circle is going to have armor. but you guys are turning popping a blister into brain surgery.

lets face in in Chechnya during the 90's various factions were improvising tanks with whatever was handy. are you so certain your neighbors would be less creative

[Targan]

1) most collectors i know and every machine shop around here has a collection of old army training manuals that cover field fabrication of parts.

So, just so we're clear on this, every machine shop in your area has a collection of old army training manuals covering field fabrication of parts for obsolete military vehicles You'll have to forgive me if I find that statement really hard to believe.

[dragoon500ly]

So, just so we're clear on this, every machine shop in your area has a collection of old army training manuals covering field fabrication of parts for obsolete military vehicles You'll have to forgive me if I find that statement really hard to believe.

The local machine shop in my home town is run by a military collector, he also does jobs for the local air transport service, he has a very extensive collection of aircraft manuals for C-47s, C-46s and C-119s, as well as manuals on various US WWII armored vehicles (there are three Shermans and a Stuart on the Mississippi Gulf Coast) a collection of WWII OSS manuals for improvised munitions, booby traps, home made firearms; so it is possible to find a collector with such a stash, BUT.....this would be exception, maybe 1-2 in an entire state.

On the other hand, Paladin Books used to attend all of the state-wide and regional gunshows and they sold an extensive line of survivalist material, including copies of the "Poor Man's James Bond Manual", "Improvised Munitions", "Anarchists' Cookbook" and other such classics.

[Targan]

So I should assume, unless I have specific information to the contrary, that in every town in America the majority of machine shops will have an archive of documents covering parts fabrication for a variety of obsolete military vehicles and heavy calibre ordnance

[Apache6]

How about mueseums and depots

I agree that AFVs are logisitcally intensive beasts that are hard to keep running in good times and will be extremely challenging to keep running in T2k. If for no other reason then fuel consumption, I believe that many (most) units, would reserve their functional armor for specific offensive actions or to be employed as part of a counter-attack force in 'defensive operations.'

But for a fun adventure, three CONUS sites that have lots of interesting vehicles, maintenance faciliities and at least pre-war a wide range of experienced staff are.

The Patton mueseum at Fort Knox, Ky. Had/s a extensive collection of AFVs from WWI on. Including US, allied, friendly and captured vehicles. Very extensive maintenance facilities at the Mueseum, not counting those aboard the rest of the base.

There was an extensive US Army armor testing facility at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Aberdeen MD, which has A LOT of one off prototypes, 'acquired' WARPAC kit and allied kit, as well as several obsolete pieces of kit. Very importantly they had a HUGE knowledge base of scientists, engineers and machinists that good fabricate just about anything.

Finally the National Training Center at Fort Irwin CA (and to a far lesser extent the USMC base at Twentynine Palms CA) have good collections of historic US armor and significant collections of 'threat kit.' At Ft Irwin, some of the vehicles were US standard vehicles visually modified to look like Soviet Kit. I know there was a fully function Ontos (lightly armored tracked vehicle carrying six 106mm RR) at 29 Palms in 1989.

Again, I don't believe that in T2K armor would be common, but there are 'possibilities' to work in some interesting kit.

Tasking a group of PCs returning from Europe to build a 'armored brigade' composed of recalled retired veterans and raw recruits, equip them with the collection of vehicles from any of the above, procure munitions and lead them against Mexican Army, New America enclaves in KY, or maruaders in NY or VA could be an interesting campaign.