Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[schnickelfritz]

I believe it can be summed up pretty close to this:
1) Tanks-AFV's and Large Caliber Cuns in municipal/private hands will be present but rare.

2) Ammo will be improvised and/or limited in most cases. Armament may be improvised as well.

3) Military transport vehicles outside of larger and/or ferderal formations will not be very common and most likely not in very good running condition due to age and lack of spares.

4) Large weapons/Tanks/AFV's will mostly exist as threats and for worst case scenarios.

5) Gun trucks built primarily from commercial vehicles (dump trucks the most common and easiest to convert) will be the most common big armored vehicles in most areas.

Does that make sense

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[HorseSoldier]

5) Gun trucks built primarily from commercial vehicles (dump trucks the most common and easiest to convert) will be the most common big armored vehicles in most areas.

Sounds like a plan in places where you have a good supply of machine guns and other automatic weapons -- and dump trucks, since I'd think most places would have a lot of non-military use for functional dump trucks. On the plus side with a dump truck, however, you could probably up armor the cab and then make everything in the cargo bed removable -- some brackets to hold a frame keeping a double stack of sandbags in place on the sides, weld on some weapons mounting points, and if your need for a dump truck is greater than your need for a gun truck, you just pull all that stuff and send it to the job site or whatever.

[Legbreaker]

How about a flat bed or container carrier - build a removable "bunker" using a shipping container as the base and lift it onto the back of the truck when it's needed. When it's not mobile it could be used as a pillbox.

Would have to armour up the cab a bit, but if done right, the armour could stay in place even when the fighting unit wasn't loaded.

[WallShadow]

(SNIP)

But for a fun adventure, three CONUS sites that have lots of interesting vehicles, maintenance faciliities and at least pre-war a wide range of experienced staff are.

The Patton mueseum at Fort Knox, Ky. Had/s a extensive collection of AFVs from WWI on. Including US, allied, friendly and captured vehicles. Very extensive maintenance facilities at the Mueseum, not counting those aboard the rest of the base.

There was an extensive US Army armor testing facility at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Aberdeen MD, which has A LOT of one off prototypes, 'acquired' WARPAC kit and allied kit, as well as several obsolete pieces of kit. Very importantly they had a HUGE knowledge base of scientists, engineers and machinists that good fabricate just about anything.

(SNIP)

Again, I don't believe that in T2K armor would be common, but there are 'possibilities' to work in some interesting kit.

Sad to say, Aberdeen's field of armor is in truly sad shape and from what I saw of the display pieces back in the 90s, unrestorable without massive effort and resources. The knowledge base, however....

[Legbreaker]

Provided those people are still there in 1997, 98, etc...
Younger ones may have been drafted, older people died of radiation, starvation, and so on. And that's not to mention those who may simply have moved away to supposedly safer locations less likely to attract a nuke.

[Targan]

The questions in my last two posts still haven't been answered. I remain keen for responses to those queries.

[bobcat]

well as for the availability of the knowledge. reprints of these manuals are quite common and since around '95 have been available to download for free which is how i got my copy. however with the EMP's knocking out large numbers of computer systems and power fluctuations it may not be accessible for everyone everywhere.

that said with the soviets pushing onto american soil long before the nukes hit more and more people are going to be grabbing these and myriad other field manuals just like they did for Y2K, and every other "dooms day" scenario. so assuming most good machine shops have the know how is not overly stretching credulity. granted this mainly applies to the older tanks and AFV's its not like i can go down to jim's car repair and expect him to fix up a Bradley fighting vehicle but a ferret armored car or an old sherman is an entirely different matter and is actually feasible given the scenario(including the desperate "make it work then worry about the doctrine later" attitude anyone who's still alive in 2000 would have.)

[Legbreaker]

I'm yet to be convinced the internet is a viable option for gathering information in the T2K timeline. I personally didn't even bother with dialup until about 1999 - just didn't see much point in "this new fangled thing!"
How many other people felt the same way I wonder How many who did have reliable net access could see the potential value in downloading manuals

Y2K may have seen a run on manuals, and T2K may be seen in a similar way, however how many of those manuals were about survival, farming and the like, and how many were mechanical manuals for old, obsolete and somewhat rare ex-military vehicles

Edit: Also, just how much was even available online back then We're used to almost instant gratification of our desires for information today, but it was a very different situation 16 years ago!

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

I saw allot more field and tech manuals in my local surplus place and collectors of such than on the internet of the time. One friend of mine had a virtual library of such books, with the various history books and such. He was a big time miniatures war-gamer of WW2 and Vietnam/Modern (as was I) Heck even the National guard armory had some old manuals when they cleaned it out in around 2000.

So combined with the aspect of portable generators, skilled and semi skilled personnel, collectors inventories, and military leadership. I would imagine with the american mindset they would get the old surplus stuff up and running to active but limited duty.

[kato13]

Edit: Also, just how much was even available online back then We're used to almost instant gratification of our desires for information today, but it was a very different situation 16 years ago!

My first BBS download, of the Anarchists Cookbook, was in October of 1984. (Not a typo) The US Army's Ranger Handbook was my second. I worked in my High school's print shop so I had bound paper copies the next day.

It certainly was not instant at 0.3kbs but all kinds of stuff was available.

As far as the internet, it was used frequently by college students here as early at 1991 and it was my career by 1994.

If you want to look at when information exploded onto the internet it was when PDFs became readily available and that was around 1993.

Even pre PDF I was part of an effort which included converting a boat load of vehicular technical documents into an electronic format for Firestone's Service centers. This was an attempt to create one of the first intranets in 1990.

[WallShadow]

This thread gave me a mental picture of Bobcat, Dragoon, and Olefin standing around the VFW memorial M4 Sherman in the town square comparing notes and ideas on how to resuscitate her, while Legbreaker and Targan are kibitzing within earshot on how impossible it's going to be.

Me I'm going to add my 2 cents of constructive criticism and be mentally searching my brain for any sources of info, parts, and materiel needed to fix her up. And, being a military history geek, that would include any Technical Manuals I personally own or know of in any of the local used bookstores or military surplus stores.

[Legbreaker]

Nobody is saying it's impossible, just implausible.

Sure, there are resources out there - technicians, tools, raw materials, power, fuel, manuals, technical drawings and specifications, and all the other bits and pieces needed such as food, and labour which can be spared from the fields. The problem is it's likely to be a very rare occurrence that all the necessary factors are all going to be in the one place at the same time when they're actually needed.

Crack that rather major problem and there's no practical reason why a community can't have a fleet of AFVs at it's disposal.

[WallShadow]

Then again, you have to weigh the benefits of neighbors' reactions: "They got a TANK running! Let's not mess with them." or "...let's be friends with them in case we need to borrow it some day." or "maybe they can help us fix some of our machinery for trade goods", or "maybe they can help us beat up the evil overlord threatening us from the town down the road", balanced against the problems of "They got a tank running. Let's go steal it/fight them for it/destroy it so they can't use it against us/capture or kill their technicians."

Heck, even being seen _working_ on a (actually hopeless) tank could provoke any of the above reactions--from offers of mutual support agreements to triggering pre-emptive strikes on the soon-to-be well-armored community. As well as internal strife about allocation of the community's resources (now _where_ did that idea come from ). And is the work on the Sherman for real, or is the town just running a big bluff This can be a nice adventure-seed producer!

[Olefin]

I keep hearing that tanks and AFV's in the hands of the militia in the US would be implausible Hmm you mean implausible like ...

A successful Soviet invasion of Alaska before nuclear war broke out

Mexico conquering almost all of Texas, half of CA, almost all of AZ and NM and then somehow holding onto most of it post war

The Italians, Greeks, Spanish, and Portuguese all turning their backs on their NATO obligations and in the case of the Italians and Greeks declaring war on NATO and actually invading fellow NATO countries in support of the Soviets

The Belgians, the majority of whom are related directly to the Dutch, going along without any concern with an armed invasion and occupation of the Netherlands and not one single unit mutinies against the order

MilGov somehow allowing the Oklahoma refineries and oil wells to be lost at the end of 2001 when it probably represents 90% of their available oil

Not one single WWII prop plane, let alone light attack jet, being in the hands of MilGov to use to shoot down the ultralights and dirigibles of New America when they had enough aviation gas to maintain very occasional air contact with New England

The US military,including the USMC who has never abandoned its people for any reason, going home and writing off several intact (by year 2000 standards) divisions, including an USMC division, cut off behind enemy lines while the same enemy is beginning to collapse and thus make it possible those men can be retrieved

etc..

Guys you have to keep in mind that the making of the implausible into "reality" is the heart and soul of the Twilight 2000 canon. Thus given all the above implausibilities that we accept freely as part of the canon of the game, I dont see the existence and operation of tanks and AFV's by municipalities and milita groups in the US as being implausible in any way.

If you can accept those implausibilities, the city of Des Moines, Iowa having two old Sherman tanks and a Ferret as part of its militia is pretty easy to swallow.

And not trying in any way to get anything started about the canon of the game or anything else. Just trying to show how we accept multiple implausibilities every day as part of the canon.