Sub Machine guns

[Brother in Arms]

I wondered how much you guys have used SMG's in twilight games I know I have read about character using MP5's especially the silenced version and Uzi's but its seems that most characters op for an assault rifle of some sort.

my character obtained a PPSH-41 in one of the few twilight games I played. In another game a fellow PC captured Scorpion VZ-61 but couldn't get a good supply of ammo(.32 ACP) for it so it was useless.

I think Sten and home made tube receiver guns would be plentiful as long as there was enough ammo around to warrant there manufacture.

However I never really thought that there wouldn't be a plentiful supply of firearms laying around after the war. I think there just be less ammo to shoot out of them.

Brother in Arms

[Rainbow Six]

A campaign I played in in the 1990's had a female Bundeswehr NPC (Hauptmann Steffi von Greiffenberg) whose personal weapon was an Uzi.

On a more recent note, I have a lot of Sterlings in use in the reference work that I'm doing on the UK - no stens though.

[Grimace]

I had several players that always wanted the silenced MP-5. It got somewhat ridiculous, so I started limiting a weapon that already should have been fairly uncommon to get. When they couldn't get the silenced version they would go for a regular MP-5.

Then they realized that with an MP-5 their engagement ranges had to become a whole lot shorter, which they didn't really care for too much. After some rather close calls against Soviets armed with assault rifles, the started to take a fairly even mix of sub machine guns and assault rifles just so they could have a wider spectrum of engagement ranges.

[Haven]

For the first time ever my PC's are going to be using SMG's and Pistols (OMG!) in order to take down a house because with the Twilight 2013 rules it actually rewards using a smaller weapon in small spaces.
(for those that want to know: this is due to the range bands and each weapon has an 'optimum' range. Using a big weapon inside its 'optimum' range costs more ticks aka time to shoot, and a pistol is nearly as deadly as an assault rifle, and largely depending on how good your shot is not the caliber of the weapon)



During my twilight 2000 rules campaigns everyone wanted the big G3 or FN-FAL with the big punch. 'Blk' rating be damned.

Sometimes they might use a shotgun, but generally, due to the weak damage on SMGs and pistols they were relegated to the extreme backup weapon.

[Raellus]

Twilight 2013 rules it actually rewards using a smaller weapon in small spaces.

This is pretty cool and yet one more reason to check out T2013.

With v2.2, there's really no compelling reason, rules-wise, to carry an SMG. SMGs, although lighter, can't compete range or damage-wise. I've had players switch to an AR after the first encounter because of this. The only time I've seen them used IG is when they are equipped with a silencer.

[Brother in Arms]

the new rules sound pretty good in relation to size of a weapon, it is hard to maneuver with a full sized battle rifle inside a building (though they did it all the time in ww2)

Assault rifles, Sub machine guns and, shotguns and pistols are probably all pretty good choices for indoors. I think a submachine gun would be perfect inside, I would feel a little under equipped with one out doors though, where ranges could be greater than I feel they would be effective. But in the past the SMG gunners where usually supported by rifle men so it wouldn't be so bad in a fire team.

I think the closest I would carry to an SMG would be an assault rifle carbine.

if I was doing door kicking in t2k I would take an AK-74SU using the 45 round RPK-74 magazines.

Or perhaps even better would be a Hungarian AMD-65 with a Russian 75 round drum magazine. One thing I would change on the AMD-65 is unscrew its massive "flash suppressor" and replace it with a simple slant break from an AKM which reduces the length of the rifle even more.

Brother in Arms

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I'm going to use a quote made by Clayton O. when we playtested the combat system ....

"A G-3 is NOT a CQB weapon."

My players usually used MP5SD3s and UMP's in .45 ACP.

I'm a fan of the Colt SMG. Stick a can on the end and you're good to go.

[smokewolf]

I'm going to use a quote made by Clayton O. when we playtested the combat system ....

"A G-3 is NOT a CQB weapon."

My players usually used MP5SD3s and UMP's in .45 ACP.

I'm a fan of the Colt SMG. Stick a can on the end and you're good to go.

Just don't let Snake Eyes have a M-4 with a Reflex site. He'll frak some crap up.

Man that just doesn't sound as cool when censored.

[LAW0306]

you cant use a G-3 in close combat so the Rhodesian defense forces and the indian army to name a few have never won battles doing this..the FN Fal battle rifle never used....once again 93 studios lack of weapons use or employment...

I just finished foriegn weapons instructor course at Quantico Virginia..I dont know anything......

and this is from me not the DC group My opions are mine alone unless publised in a book from our group...

[Tegyrius]

What the hell Did I kick your dog when I wasn't looking

Law, I made that statement in relation to the game engine, not as a sweeping generalization on military history. As others have previously noted in this thread, the Reflex System does factor a weapon's bulk into the speed with which a user can orient on target. I did this explicitly to solve what the design team perceived as a problem in most game systems, in which all firearms have identical speeds from contact distance out to their maximum ranges. When we were first working on this particular mechanic, I didn't want M82A1s being optimal CQB weapons, and I wanted there to be a reason for players to use smaller weapons (with lower Damage values) in that environment.

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

OK, ok, Law may have a rather brusque temperament (I had a bad first impression), but he knows what he's talking about and I now regard him as a friend (even if he is a Marine).

Law, take it easy on Tegyrius. He's new here and doesn't know our personalities yet. And just because he's new doesn't mean he doesn't know anything.

Let's have a cease fire, guys.

[kato13]

OK, ok, Law may have a rather brusque temperament (I had a bad first impression), but he knows what he's talking about and I now regard him as a friend (even if he is a Marine).

Law, take it easy on Tegyrius. He's new here and doesn't know our personalities yet. And just because he's new doesn't mean he doesn't know anything.

Let's have a cease fire, guys.

Thanks I was crafting just such a response but you said it perfectly.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

LAW,

OK let me explain how the comment was made.

We were testing the combat system and we had one guy armed with an AK, one with an SMG, one with an M-4 and REFLEX sight, and one guy with a G-3. We chose the weapons at random and, IIRR, Clayton drew a G-3.

The outcome of the exchange was that Snake, armed with the M-4, SMOKED Clayton on initiative and hosed him in CQB range. In actuallity both weapons are about the same performance at that range.

The joke just stood because Snake rolled so well on initiative and the way the position of both combatants were in just made the M-4 look like THE weapon to have while the G-3 didnt "look" like the studly weapon to have.

Yes the G-3 can be used as a CQB weapon but for JUST strickly CQB and as a CQB weapon the SMG still rules - in my theoretical and practical experience that is.

[Tegyrius]

Paul and Kato, I hope you'll allow me to be more than a little irked here. I don't see this as an isolated post. Law seems to have a serious case of the ass where 93GS and the 2013 project are concerned. I don't know what the source of his anger is, but I hope his attitude is not representative of the forum's overall membership. Quite frankly, I expect better from this particular game's fan community.

Max, speaking of cases of the ass, you seem to keep wanting to make me the target in that test fight. I was moderating; 'twas Cap who got himself, uh, disarmed. So to speak.

- C.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

C. - sorry brother... you are right it was Keith that got "light' up" not you and Simon got ... 'eerrr - disARMed but I was the one that got my A$$ capped FIRST in the first few rounds of the gunfight and I had the AKM. LOL

Hey - they'res an old saying in law enforcement - "If they don't make fun of you then they don't like you."