Improvised Armor in T2K

[Olefin]

And I will edit it when I get the chance when I get back to my desk and can properly edit it - and sorry not trying to defend any misquote - the part at the end was a response to your original quote by Targan and not you - and again was used as an example of how others see the articles as at the very least GDW sanctioned.

However until I can get to my desk later today please accept my full apology - no slight of any sort was intended. I will show the full thread and who the quote at the end as to sanctioning came from.

[.45cultist]

Guys A Rock In Troubled Waters is canon not a fan submission - if its in Challenge Magazine its canon as far as I know - lots of what became the 2nd edition are also in Challenge Magazine

And Adam Giebel wrote seven pieces for Challenge Magazine - and that was hardly a fan submission magazine - it was official GDW material for a bunch of their products

so canon it is unless what you are saying is that every article in Challenge Magazine wasnt canon

I liked that article. Who did the Texas inland waterway article And which issue is it in

[simonmark6]

"Angels are pure intelligences, not material, but limited, so that they have location in space, but not extension. Therefore, the number is infinite."

Dorothy L. Sayers

[Olefin]

With big time apologies to Rainbow 6 - this shows how the question of a Challenge Magazine article was canon was discussed in the past

thread

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=4306&highlight=tank+plant

Initial quote is from Rainbow 6

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six
IIRC there was a scenario published in a Challenge magazine that involved an M1 plant in Lima, Ohio (I haven't viewed the Youtube video so don't know if that's the plant in question). I can't recall the specifics - I think it might have involved the PC's having to recover some machinery or such like.

Response to his post from Targan

Originally Posted by Targan


*SPOILERS*
"The 112th Medical Division recently learned that 30 M-1 Abrams MBTs are sitting outside the former General Motors Lima Tank Plant in Lima, OH."

During one of the previous discussions about this scenario it was suggested (by Kato perhaps) that according to the canon strike lists, the Lima tank plant would likely have been within the zone of destruction caused by a nuke strike. However, given that GDW sanctioned a Challenge Mag adventure featuring the plant being intact, I treat it as being intact in my campaigns.


I am sorry again Rainbow Six and I never meant to make it sound like that whole quote had come from you

[swaghauler]

Years ago a group I was playing with added about ten layers of corrugated roofing iron to a light truck. Was more psychological than actual armour, but anything's better than nothing right

You actually had a fairly decent form of light armor there. If you place the corrugated tin with the raised sections "overlapping" (put the raised edge of one sheet into the trough of another one) and bolt or weld them all together; You will produce a form of spaced armor that will stop handgun rounds and even some light rifle rounds (M1 Carbine rounds). Back it with some cork or fiberglass and it will resist multiple rounds. Bolt it to a frame about a foot away from the vehicle of structure and you have a fairly good "RPG Screen" as well.

[Olefin]

One last post on canon and Challenge magazine which was edited by Loren Wiseman - i.e. the articles by him, by Frank Frey, and others who were GDW authors - these articles are either by known GDW authors or ones who Loren worked with directly on articles he submitted, meaning they may have worked for GDW in some capacity - so do you consider these to be canon for either Twilight or MERC

"Twilight scenario: False Knight on the Road", Ch25: 9-10
Frey, Frank

"Twilight: 2000 Air Module", Ch26: 3-11
"Air Module II", Ch28: 3-5
Frey, Frank, & Loren Wiseman

"All that Glitters", Ch67: 12
"Poppies", Ch68: 6
"Avery's Raiders", Ch69: 6
"Altruistic Motives", Ch73: 10
Brown, Timothy B.

"Black Siberia", Ch51: 6-12 (1991)
"Merc: 2000 - Jumpy Jehosophat", Ch55: 10-11 (1991)
Kiesche, Fred, and Loren Wiseman

"Equipment for Armor Crews", Ch32: 3-7 (1988)
"Haute Cuisine a la 2000", Ch33: 3-5 (1988)
Keith, William H.

"Going On Safari", Ch52: 6-12 (1991)
Mulkey, Thomas E. (Capt., US Army, ret'd)

"Merc 2000: Silence is Golden", Ch58: 12-16 (1992)
"Things Got Weirder", Ch62: 12-13, 16-18 (1992)
Smith, Lester W., & Loren K. Wiseman

"Umpiring Twilight", Ch38: 4-5 (1989)
Wiseman, Loren K.


"Target 2000: The 'Hit List' for WWIII", Ch27: 9-10/47 (1986)
"Twilight: 2000 Consolidated Price List", Ch27: 11-14 (1986)
"Buildings: Optional rules for Urban Locales", Ch29: 12-14 (1987)
"TWILIGHT Survey", Ch33: 11 (1988)
"Heavy Weapons Guide Preview", Ch40: 4-6 (1989)
"The Stoner 63 Weapon System: the Guns that Never (Really) Were", Ch40: 8-9 (1989)
"Sheltie Holiday", Ch43: 6-15 (1990)
"TWILIGHT II: The Adventure Continues", Ch45: 6-11 (1990)
"Attack of the Mud Men", Ch46: 6-9 (1990)
"Merc: 2000 - Barbados", Ch48: 7-12 (1991)
"Infantry Weapons: Special Preview", Ch48: 16-17 (1991)
"HOW TO: Obtain Maps for Gaming", Ch49: 16-17 (1991)
Wiseman, Loren K., and Timothy B. Brown

"Inside an M1", Ch29: 8-10 (1987)
"Mobile Artillery - Mortars", Ch34: 6-7 (1988)
McRae, Legion G.

"Canada: 2000", Ch30: 13-18 (1987)
"Red Maple", Ch36: 3-10 (1988)
"Seeing is Believing", Ch54: 6-9 (1991)
"It Was Unlikely...", Ch65: 8
McRae, Legion G., and Michelle Sturgeon


"Citymaker", Ch35: 4-10 (1988)
Wiseman, Loren K., and Legion G. McRae

[Raellus]

My Lions of Twilight was publicly endorsed by Frank Frey, right here on this very forum. Does that mean that it's canon Does it mean that it's more canonical than Olefin's East African Sourcebook Does it matter

My take on these is:
A. No.
B. No.
C. No.

Why are we still debating what is and what is not canon Every GM has the power to decide what to use and what to omit from his/her own T2KU. Some forumites ignore Howling Wilderness, which is, by Olefin's definition, canon. So, why do some of those same people bring out the "this is in canon so it's more valid" argument elsewhere (i.e. in this thread)

My point is, we all pick and choose, so no one should really be trying to impose their views on others with the "this is canon" argument. It's moot because all determine what is or isn't the case in our own T2KUs.

Let's drop it and move on.

[Olefin]

No actually I am not trying to impose any view Raellus. I am just asking because I had always assumed that the challenge magazine material was canon because so much of it was written by the GDW authors themselves. And I have seen others refer to it as such as well.

With the exception of HW and Kidnapped I try to keep my writing and play as canonical based as I can. Thus it's good to know what a canon source is versus non. But again in the big scheme it's not that big a deal. If I base something on A Rock in Troubled Waters then I do. If someone doesn't accept it then they dont

[pmulcahy11b]

Here it is:

http://www.pmulcahy.com/misc_pages/armor_values.html

It doesn't actually have a link to it anywhere on the site (as far as I can tell)

As far as I can calculate (according to that chart), the 10 layers of corrugated iron (assuming 2mm sheets) would have an AV of 3 (actually 3.33), and possibly spaced (especially if it's welded together loosely).

[Raellus]

No actually I am not trying to impose any view Raellus. I am just asking because I had always assumed that the challenge magazine material was canon because so much of it was written by the GDW authors themselves. And I have seen others refer to it as such as well.

With the exception of HW and Kidnapped I try to keep my writing and play as canonical based as I can. Thus it's good to know what a canon source is versus non.

It's seems like you're doing a lot more than "asking". Folks have answered you several times yet you persist to "ask". Let's be honest here.

But again in the big scheme it's not that big a deal. If I base something on A Rock in Troubled Waters then I do. If someone doesn't accept it then they dont

Right on! More power to you.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There was a small number of vehicles made by the nascent Israeli state when they were in dire need of armoured vehicles. I've never found much in the way of technical specs and they are all generally referred to as "Sandwich armour" cars/trucks etc.
The "sandwich armour" was an early sort of composite but you can see the vehicles were made in a decent workshop and are not "hillbilly" as such. In some cases the vehicles are changed enough that its difficult to tell what it originally was before they added the armour.

The Israelis may have started using the "sandwich" label early on but there's just so little information available that the who & when is still unclear. What is known is that they constructed the armour as a thick wooden board between two iron or steel sheets and that they armoured a number of vehicles to make scout cars, APCs and protected ambulances. It's also stated at the Latrun museum that the vehicles were heavy and a strain on the motors so the vehicles were slow moving - and hence easy targets.
There's two examples on the following link (pics 7 & 8)

https://milinme.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/

And a much more in depth look at one such APC on the following link

http://svsm.org/gallery/improvised_armored_carpage=1

At a guess I'd say that the steel plates probably didn't add much protection and so the board provided most of it, (the plates were probably more to stop splinters from flying off the wood). I'm guessing at game stats (2nd Ed.) but based on the table for AV, the larger vehicles could have been AV 6 or 7 with the smaller vehicles having maybe AV 4 or 5. Useful against smallarms but when the vehicle is slow, it ain't so great for anything else

[Olefin]

Here it is:

http://www.pmulcahy.com/misc_pages/armor_values.html

It doesn't actually have a link to it anywhere on the site (as far as I can tell)

As far as I can calculate (according to that chart), the 10 layers of corrugated iron (assuming 2mm sheets) would have an AV of 3 (actually 3.33), and possibly spaced (especially if it's welded together loosely).

So Paul - how would the Cadillac Gage Ranger (i.e. the Peacekeeper) compare to a typical armored car - are the numbers for the vehicle comparable to what a bank armored car would be

[.45cultist]

So Paul - how would the Cadillac Gage Ranger (i.e. the Peacekeeper) compare to a typical armored car - are the numbers for the vehicle comparable to what a bank armored car would be

Doesn't the Ranger use the "Cadalloy" aluminum alloy armor by Textron

Cadillac Gage became Textron, Food Machinery Corp. became Alliant Tech. Some mistake "FMC" for Ford Motor Co.and not Food Machinery Corp.

[Olefin]

I think you may be right - wasnt it only about a 1/4 inch thick

The Stingray tank and the V-100 Commando had the Cadalloy armor for sure

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I liked that article. Who did the Texas inland waterway article And which issue is it in

Title: The Inland Waterway: Supplemental Material for Red Star/Lone Star
Author: William H. Keith, Jr
Challenge Issue No27, pages 6 to 8 then continued on page 22.
Published: sometime around the end of 1986.

It would be a bit of luck to find a printed copy these days but if you have the spare dollars, Far Future Enterprises has PDF copies for purchase either individually through places like DrivethruRPG (and the price is discounted at the moment)

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/87160/CHALLENGE-Magazine-No-27

or on the 1st edition or 2nd edition CD-ROMs of T2k. FFE also offer a CD-ROM of all the Challenge mags.

http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html

The T2k disks cost US$35 each, the Challenge disk cost US$45