Ammo stockpiles

[Legbreaker]

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.

However, by the time of T2K, most, if not all these stashes would be virtually empty. There's been several wars going on for several years in different parts of the world. The US alone is engaged in Europe, the Middle East, Korea, Alaska, and against Mexico, not to mention the various civil defence issues the military has had to deal with. Five theatres of high intensity conflict means ammo stocks are getting burnt through many times faster than industry can replace them. Wouldn't surprise me if the government had put out a call to the general population in mid 1997 onwards for donations of 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308, 9mm and .45 ammo.
We know most rounds used in Europe by mid 2000 are reloads, with 1 reload having the same value as 10 empties. If that's the case, how many factory loads are going to be left in storehouses

[swaghauler]

The Gap stash would give the existing government of PA quite an advantage, although a convoy from the Gap to Harrisburg might be an adventure in itself.

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.

The Gap is only about 20 miles or so outside of Harrisburg very close to Hersey PA (yes, where Hersey chocolates are made). It is also the location of the Air National Guard's C130 wing. It is also used extensively by the PA State Police and the Capitol Police (of Harrisburg, NOT Washington) for training (including SWAT training).

Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located just south of PA State Route 285 about 5 miles East of the town of Conneaut Lake PA and about 1 mile south of the town of Geneva PA. It is about 5 miles west of PA RT19 and 5 miles east of RT322 West. Johnstown is 140 miles southeast of The Ordinance. Johnstown is actually closer to The Gap than us. Allegheny Uprising wasn't completely accurate. For instance, The actual Allegheny Forest is north of I80 (way north) and sits astride PA State Route 6.
While the "foothills" of the Allegheny's actually start in the Laurel Highlands southeast of Pittsburgh and north of Johnstown, they stretch north into New York. The highest peaks center around Boot Jack Summit outside of Ridgeway PA 120 miles north of Pittsburgh.
I have spent 10 years driving armored cars and flatbeds (pipe) around "The Forest" and I can tell you that if you don't "belong" there, the locals WILL POSE A GRAVE THREAT TO YOU during a disaster. Population density in the "PA WILDS" as the northern counties bordering NY State are called is very low. The people who live there are farmers, coal miners, oil well "roughnecks" and lumberjacks. They are all basically "preppers" because they live in an area that gets 10 feet of snow and -22F temps in the winter and has a police response time that stretches into hours at times. To call my "cousins" (I live 40 miles SW of The Forest) "Rednecks" would be an understatement.

[Rockwolf66]

In the '80's, several U.S. park rangers were trained by army rangers to tackle the farms in the parks. I guess they didn't have a SWAT school, they usually went to FLETC. I just remember the news blurb was "Rangers got to Ranger School" and showed the rangers rappelling from a UH1H.

I grew up smack dab in the middle of the Emerald Triangle. I've known some growers there since I was pre-school age. Some of them are ok people growing for themselves and their friends. Others who I have met in that trade need two to the base of the skull. I'm actually glad that the family member who was an LEO in that region worked boats and not the "war in the woods". It seems that when some of the growers got back from Vietnam they brought all the VC tricks they could back with them.

[.45cultist]

I grew up smack dab in the middle of the Emerald Triangle. I've known some growers there since I was pre-school age. Some of them are ok people growing for themselves and their friends. Others who I have met in that trade need two to the base of the skull. I'm actually glad that the family member who was an LEO in that region worked boats and not the "war in the woods". It seems that when some of the growers got back from Vietnam they brought all the VC tricks they could back with them.

The old news article showed coffee can mines and eye level fish hooks at one raided farm.

[Raellus]

However, by the time of T2K, most, if not all these stashes would be virtually empty. There's been several wars going on for several years in different parts of the world. The US alone is engaged in Europe, the Middle East, Korea, Alaska, and against Mexico, not to mention the various civil defence issues the military has had to deal with. Five theatres of high intensity conflict means ammo stocks are getting burnt through many times faster than industry can replace them. Wouldn't surprise me if the government had put out a call to the general population in mid 1997 onwards for donations of 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308, 9mm and .45 ammo.
We know most rounds used in Europe by mid 2000 are reloads, with 1 reload having the same value as 10 empties. If that's the case, how many factory loads are going to be left in storehouses

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

[swaghauler]

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

I believe Aspqrz was asking about ammo supply in the context of a Biohazard/war-z type scenario, not a Twilight2000 scenario. I believe his post was an investigation into where one would get ammo from if the supply chain and or command structure was suddenly severed during such a "disaster." This is why I have singled out NG/Reserve logistics sites (the first line of support in a disaster) as well as where citizens might acquire said ammo.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, I think post nuke, the vast majority of ammo resupply won't be coming from rear areas but will be "in house" reloads and captured from enemy stockpiles (such as they are).
It's possible rear area troops would have little to no ammo, and some may be re-equipped with civilian weapons using non-military calibres, some may even have no firearms at all and may instead have to resort to bows and crossbows (in rare instances).

In the originally postulated scenario, ammo production would likely completely cease. Once the already manufactured supplies run out, which may not take very long if they're not being replenished, soldiers and civilians alike will have to start getting inventive. Muscle powered projectiles (bows, slings, spears, etc) and melee weapons would take on a greater importance, with the few rounds left being reserved for the truly life threatening situations. Any remaining ammo stockpiles (also food and other life sustaining supplies) would be heavily fought over until they ran out.

This situation would be the same the world over.

[Rockwolf66]

The old news article showed coffee can mines and eye level fish hooks at one raided farm.

Heard of those along with Shotgun shell booby traps designed to make opening gates or cutting down plants a hazardous experience.

The funny thing about most Criminal weapons caches I've heard of is that they sometimes have dozens of firearms but they don't have a lot of ammunition. It's as iff they are going more for looks than effectiveness.

[WallShadow]

<SNIP>
Allegheny Uprising wasn't completely accurate. For instance, The actual Allegheny Forest is north of I80 (way north) and sits astride PA State Route 6.
While the "foothills" of the Allegheny's actually start in the Laurel Highlands southeast of Pittsburgh and north of Johnstown, they stretch north into New York. The highest peaks center around Boot Jack Summit outside of Ridgeway PA 120 miles north of Pittsburgh.
I have spent 10 years driving armored cars and flatbeds (pipe) around "The Forest" and I can tell you that if you don't "belong" there, the locals WILL POSE A GRAVE THREAT TO YOU during a disaster. Population density in the "PA WILDS" as the northern counties bordering NY State are called is very low. The people who live there are farmers, coal miners, oil well "roughnecks" and lumberjacks. They are all basically "preppers" because they live in an area that gets 10 feet of snow and -22F temps in the winter and has a police response time that stretches into hours at times. To call my "cousins" (I live 40 miles SW of The Forest) "Rednecks" would be an understatement.

Swaghauler, if you think the folk west of the Kittatinny Mountain Ridge by the PA turnpike are any more civilized and warm and open-armed than your northern tier "God's Country" kin, you are quite wrong. The motto of the Pennsyltuckians is "Yew ain't fr'm 'round 'chere, ere ya" followed quickly by "We don' lak yer kind 'round 'chere." If you get a third warning, it might be the racking of a shotgun slide or the clack of a hunting rifle bolt. Or the roar of a chainsaw wielded by a guy in a poorly-cured human-face-skin-leather mask.

I still find it odd that Letterkenny Army Depot in Franklin County (just east of the Kittatinny Mountain) hasn't been addressed as either part of an adventure or as part of a reconstruction/continuity of gov't backstory

They've been doing vehicle and M109 SPH refurbishments, missile electronics refits, ammunition disposal and storage, and for a while they had huge oil-storage-tank shaped mothball facilities for vehicles that were part of a strategic reserve--refurbished older models, mostly trucks and jeeps and such, perhaps others, drained of fluids and kept in a climate-controlled environment pending need.
For a while, if not currently, they were storing arms and ammo captured in operations, like AK-47s and such, in the same type of igloos that the slated-to-be-destroyed munitions are prior to detonation or recycling. Quote the History of Letterkenney Army Depot: "In 1990, Letterkenny was selected as the single processing and storage location for all weapons captured during the 1990 invasion of Panama, Operation Just Cause." Not a bad thing to find to help arm the local militias against marauders or New American actions (which may be the same thing). The Depot also has loads of acreage that is opened to local hunters in hunting season, so with appropriate management and security, sharecrops and harvested wildlife may keep the operations of the depot going with something like the food chits of Krakov's city government used to feed the guarding troops and support the civilian technicians.

[ArmySGT.]

Sierra Army Depot is smack in the middle of "State of Jefferson" country.

There is a lot of Nam Vets in the Siskiyou range and NorCal growing pot and living off grid. That area chosen because there are no major targets and it isn't downwind of any major targets either.... the Oregon/California border area specifically.

State of Jefferson supporters want a 51st State carved from Southern Oregon, Northern California, with some of Nevada for good measure.

[WallShadow]

Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located just south of PA State Route 285 about 5 miles East of the town of Conneaut Lake PA and about 1 mile south of the town of Geneva PA. It is about 5 miles west of PA RT19 and 5 miles east of RT322 West.

Speaking of ammo and Conneaut Lake, there is company called Combined Tactical Systems, Inc, in Jamestown, PA, just near the southern point of the lake. They produce non-lethal rounds for 37/38mm and 40mm launchers. Now while teargas and smoke rounds may be useful, one wonders how hard it would be for them to reverse-engineer HE or shotgun/flechette rounds for a M79 or M203

[swaghauler]

Combined Tactical also makes various "flash bangs" including the M84 (the Army's single stage "flash bang" with a 3-second fuse), pepper sprays, incendiaries (thermite), 12 & 20 gauge baton & "sock" rounds, and "vomit gas."
"Less Lethals" are very versatile and the other munitions (especially "flash bangs") would be in high demand.

[swaghauler]

Swaghauler, if you think the folk west of the Kittatinny Mountain Ridge by the PA turnpike are any more civilized and warm and open-armed than your northern tier "God's Country" kin, you are quite wrong. The motto of the Pennsyltuckians is "Yew ain't fr'm 'round 'chere, ere ya" followed quickly by "We don' lak yer kind 'round 'chere." If you get a third warning, it might be the racking of a shotgun slide or the clack of a hunting rifle bolt. Or the roar of a chainsaw wielded by a guy in a poorly-cured human-face-skin-leather mask.

I still find it odd that Letterkenny Army Depot in Franklin County (just east of the Kittatinny Mountain) hasn't been addressed as either part of an adventure or as part of a reconstruction/continuity of gov't backstory

They've been doing vehicle and M109 SPH refurbishments, missile electronics refits, ammunition disposal and storage, and for a while they had huge oil-storage-tank shaped mothball facilities for vehicles that were part of a strategic reserve--refurbished older models, mostly trucks and jeeps and such, perhaps others, drained of fluids and kept in a climate-controlled environment pending need.
For a while, if not currently, they were storing arms and ammo captured in operations, like AK-47s and such, in the same type of igloos that the slated-to-be-destroyed munitions are prior to detonation or recycling. Quote the History of Letterkenney Army Depot: "In 1990, Letterkenny was selected as the single processing and storage location for all weapons captured during the 1990 invasion of Panama, Operation Just Cause." Not a bad thing to find to help arm the local militias against marauders or New American actions (which may be the same thing). The Depot also has loads of acreage that is opened to local hunters in hunting season, so with appropriate management and security, sharecrops and harvested wildlife may keep the operations of the depot going with something like the food chits of Krakov's city government used to feed the guarding troops and support the civilian technicians.

About five years ago, a 15-year-old thug escaped from Vision Quest and stole a horse. He was caught by at least 6 people (from footprints found at the scene) and promptly HUNG. The case remains unsolved today because there is no local law enforcement and the locals refuse to cooperate with the State Police. Another gentleman who was the center of an oil lease fraud investigation was doused with gasoline and set alight. This was in broad daylight in a shopping center and once again there were no witnesses. I won't argue (and really do believe) that those on The Ridge are as "clannish" as The Wilds, but I don't remember any stories like that from The Ridge.

As for Letterkenny Army Depot, It is, in fact, an AMSA sight. All of the major military installations serve as AMSA sites for any NG or Reserve units in their immediate vicinity. Letterkenny also just happens to serve the regular army as well. I have no doubt it would be the seat of power on The Ridge.
Another AMSA site in PA would be Oakdale PA, Southwest of the Pittsburgh Airport. This is also the home of the 99th ARCOM, as well as the Commissary and PX for the NG and Reserves. It is a fairly large complex with a large amount of communications equipment for COG operations. Both complexes would be very important to local command and control in their respective regions.

One thing that would give The Wilds an advantage over other areas in the Allegheny Region is Kinzua Dam north of Warren (80 megawatts of hydro-electric power) in combination with United Refining Inc's refineries in Warren PA, Bradford PA, and off of RT46 South of Elgin PA. They are too far inland for small sub launched nukes and no ICBMs were listed as hitting the area. Electricity AND at least 2 million gallons a day of oil production capacity (including the crude) and at least 50 million gallons of bulk storage would make for a powerful asset for whatever force controls it. Limited heavy access (only 4 more than 10-ton weight limit roads entering the region) would also make it very defensible.

[WallShadow]

Hey Swag, while not an ammo stockpile, you have the USS Niagara docked in Erie. A nice little brig that could be useful in maintaining law and justice on Lake Erie. Or be a splendid little buccaneer ship.

[swaghauler]

Hey Swag, while not an ammo stockpile, you have the USS Niagara docked in Erie. A nice little brig that could be useful in maintaining law and justice on Lake Erie. Or be a splendid little buccaneer ship.

And ALL of her guns are functional. I volunteered to help to National Guard test her guns after the rebuild. The "hull section" in the museum is, IN FACT, the handiwork of Niagra's guns. She is also FULL Coast Guard certified for open water. She would be a powerful Naval unit but her habitability simply SUCKS. as primitive as camping. I still wouldn't mess with ANY of the 20 black powder cannon in the Museum's possession.